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Kettler, Ernestine Hara (audio interview #2 of 6)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the second interview with Ernestine Hara Kettler in her hotel room. The interview covers some of her childhood experiences in Rumania, and early family life there and in the US following the family's immigration as well as her youthful political involvement in New York. 1/29/1973
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- SUBJECT BIO - Ernestine Kettler was one of the suffragists who was arrested for picketing the White House with the National Woman's Party. She served time at the Occoquan Work House, where she participated in the strikes launched by the suffragist prisoners to be recognized as political prisoners. Shortly after this, Kettler went west, where she worked initially with the I.W.W. (Industrial Workers of the World) and later for various trade unions in both San Francisco and Los Angeles. She remained an ardent feminist her entire life and had a long history of labor and socialist activism. Her involvement with the suffrage struggle, though short-lived, was an outgrowth of both her feminist beliefs and her ties to political and bohemian circles in New York that began in her teen years. Kettler was among the former suffragists who spoke at the Jubilee celebration of woman's suffrage in Los Angeles, and she was referred to the Feminist History Research Project by leaders of Los Angeles NOW. Approximately 7 hours were recorded with her in January and February, 1973, when she was 78 years old. The interviews were conducted mainly in her room at a residential hotel overlooking MacArthur Park in Los Angeles. A petite woman, who was still very intellectually inquiring and physically vigorous, she nevertheless seemed rather depressed. Her health failed over the next two years, and she moved into an assisted living facility, where a final, brief interview was conducted in 1975. She lived there until her death in 1978. TOPICS - Topics covered on this side of the tape include: Kettler's childhood in New York; her schooling at a Christian school in Massachusetts; her early radicalism and association with anarchists like Hippolyte Havel and the bohemians of Greenwich village and Provincetown;Topics covered on this side of the tape include: Kettler's participation in the National Woman's Party picketing in Washington, DC and her experiences in the Occoquan Work House;
- *** File: sufehkettler3.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-2:02)... Tape introduction (2:02-5:12)... After her father's death in Romania, her mother immigrated with her four children to the United States in 1907. Upon their arrival, relatives assisted her mother financially and her mother also got a "sweat" job. While in Romania, her mother was courted by a man who wanted to marry her, but she refused to break her attachment to her husband, even after his death. She believes that her mother was foolish for not marrying this man, but then does not know how her family would have survived during the communist regime in Romania. In New York, a distance cousin fell in love with her mother and wanted to marry her. Although she refused to become involved in a relationship with him, he often brought her family food, which kept them from starving. Kettler believes that she was bound to be politically active. As a young girl, she often visited the Socialist Party headquarters. Even though she was not active in the organization, she attended their meetings and was interested in their movement. This atmosphere was part of her political education and complimented her already anarchist family background. (5:12-7:12)... Her relatives persuaded her mother to place her younger brother in an orphanage because she was having difficulty supporting the family. Her older brother did not stay in the United States for very long. He returned to Romania and served in the army, after which time he returned to the United States. This left her mother responsible for only Kettler and her younger sister, both of whom were attending school at the time. (7:12-12:00)... When she was 16 years old she went to work in the shop where her mother worked. She did not work at this shop for very long because she began telling the workers that if they joined the union they would be entitled to certain conditions. After the forewoman found out she was "organizing" the women, she was told to leave. She went to high school for one year and to private academies for three years. Her private school education was paid by Fisk Warren and his wife, millionaires from Massachusetts. She was referred to Warren Fisk through her involvement with the Labor Temple in New York, where she participated in several activities, including the Girl Scouts. The Labor Temple in New York was particularly noteworthy because it attempted to Christianize the participants, but they did not succeed with her. She was sent to a school in Massachusetts where foreigners were taught a Christian education in an effort to make them missionaries. The level of school was high school and she stayed there for one to two years. She then spent her third year in Oberlin where she attended an academy. She is not sure if she graduated from high school because years later when she attempted to go to school in Madison, Wisconsin, she did not have enough credits for acceptance. (12:00-13:52)... While in school, she maintained her political views and did not encounter any adverse reactions as a result of her beliefs. During summer vacations, she would return to New York and live with her mother. Although the school she attended attempted to get her involved in religious activities, she did not participate. She was not religious as a child and believes that a person could get the same fulfillment from having a political conviction. (13:52-14:59)... Her mother was happy she was going to school, but did not know of the religious indoctrination that was taking place. Every Sunday, Kettler went to the Unitarian Church because it was the most tolerant of the churches. Instead of listening to the sermons, she read a book, which in retrospect was very humorous to her. (14:59-17:57)... Going to school away from home allowed her to have a certain amount of freedom. When she was home with her mother, they lived in a small, two-room apartment; one room was the kitchen and the other was a bedroom. The neighborhood was a very poor and multicultural. Her family's ethnicity is Spanish-Jewish (Sephardic) and they knew very little, if any Yiddish. She claims that some people accused her family of being anti-Semites because they did not speak Yiddish. Ultimately, her mother and sister learned some Yiddish so they could communicate with people in the community. (17:57-21:39)... Although her mother was an anarchist, she was not involved in any activities while in the United States. As a child, Kettler was politically active with her friends. If there was a strike, they marched and they attended meetings in Union Square. She regrets lacking the courage to speak, but recalls that her political views were not well formed at this time. When she finished school in Massachusetts, she returned to New York and then went to Oberlin, Ohio, where she attended an academy for one year. Warren Fisk paid for her tuition and books at Oberlin, but she was required to pay for her room and board. She worked as a domestic servant after she finished her classes; however, she did not do this for very long and was then provided with a stipend to pay for her expenses. She then returned to New York and went to a public high school, but did not like it because she found the other students to be very immature. While at private academies she was accustomed to being around young people who were intelligent and highly educated. (21:39-24:39)... When she returned to New York after Oberlin, she went to a commercial school and learned skills in bookkeeping, stenography, and typing. She trained for one year and this qualified her for office jobs. She worked for Frank Harris at Smart Set magazine. When WWI began, she took a job with a defense industry in Brunswick, New Jersey. However, this work was difficult because the typewriters were wide and heavy and she did not have the muscular strength to maneuver the typewriter. She boarded at a rooming house and recalls that there were several women working in defense industries in New Jersey at that time. When she was young she was looking for thrills and was involved with people who would talk about ideas on how to destroy capitalism; however, this was just a lot of talk with no illegal activity taking place. When she left her job in New Jersey and returned to New York, she met Katherine Hodgins at a Socialist Party convention. Shortly thereafter, she went to Washington, DC to work for the suffrage movement. (24:39-27:49)... While in New York, she was not a member of any radical organizations, but she knew a lot of radicals, particularly socialists and Wobblies. Although she knew very few anarchists, she did have a friendship with Hippolyte Havel, who she met in New York before she went to Provincetown in 1916. She went to Provincetown in 1916 with the Zurack family, who needed someone to travel with them and care for their young son. She was in Provincetown for approximately two months, during which time she met Eugene O'Neill among others. She was offered a part in Louise Bryant's play, but she turned it down for the leading role in Eugene O'Neill's play, even though she could not act. (27:49-29:51)... Her associations with anarchists were limited to her friendship with Hippolyte Havel. She did meet both Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman. Mr. Berkman sent her a letter while she was in jail as a result of her suffrage activities. She met several people through the radical circles she associated with and often went to meetings held by various groups. She did not go to the IWW headquarters while living in New York, but spent some at the Socialist Party headquarters. She recalls having very strong views against those men who registered for the World War I draft. On the other hand, she had great admiration for men who refused the draft and spent time in the Leavenworth Prison, which was where many conscientious objectors were sentenced. (29:51-31:09)... In general, she was a radical with very little education and knowledge. However, she had a very active and intelligent mind and developed her image of what an ideal society was before she joined any radical parties. Most of her socialist ideas were strong before she joined the Socialist Party in 1940. (31:09-35:21)... There were discussions regarding women's issues within socialist circles at the time. Repression of women within political life and as intellectual beings was not advocated by radicals. These ideals influenced her decision to go to Washington, DC and participate in the suffrage movement. Although she does not recall any specific instance when women's issues were discussed within her radical circles, she has a distinct memory that this was a topic of conversation. Two or three of her girlfriends were feminists and they all believed that women were just as capable as men if given the opportunity or permitted to develop their potential. However, she does not recall using the term "feminist" to describe themselves at the time. With reference to birth control, she pursued information when she moved to Seattle. She recalls writing a letter to her sister-in-law providing detailed information on how to use and obtain birth control; however, she did not mail this letter. Subsequently, when she and her husband were being harassed by the authorities, a policeman found the letter and she distracted him from determining what the contents were by talking incessantly as he read the letter. She believes she could have received a prison sentence for disseminating birth control information. (35:21-37:28)... She did have an interest in sex and marriage, but did not want to have children. She cannot recall any specific instance when discussions on these topics caused her to state her point of view. She may have objected to the institution of marriage; at the time in the radical/bohemian circles in which she traveled the idea that wives were legal prostitutes was common. She accepted this idea. She has had feminist attitudes throughout her life and is conscious of the areas where women are repressed and discriminated against because of their sex. (37:28-41:01)... Although she had a difficult time recalling what years she marched in the parades, she believes she participated in at least two suffrage parades in New York, both before and after she went to Washington, DC. When she did march in the suffrage parades, she believes she did so with a group of radical friends. At this time, these friends wanted to publish a monthly magazine and asked her to do the writing because they believed she had talent, which surprised her. (41:01-44:23)... She met Katherine Hodgins at the Socialist Party headquarters during a convention. Hodgins told her about the suffrage events occurring in Washington, DC and asked if she was interested in participating. She also told Kettler that women were getting arrested and going to jail as a result of their picketing efforts. Kettler had never been to jail before and the idea sounded romantic at the time. Hodgins was unusual because she was the only woman who spoke to her about suffrage at the Socialist Party convention. She does not recall exactly how she got to Washington, DC, but someone paid her fare. When she arrived in the city, she was taken to the headquarters of the National Woman's Party, which she described as the "little white house." She was given the room of former president, William McKinley; Even though he did not die in the bed in that room, she did not want to stay in this room because she thought she was sleeping on his death bed. end of tape *** File: sufehkettler4.mp3 (0:00-2:35)... Kettler met Alice Paul when she arrived in Washington, DC. When the suffragists were sent to the picket line, they were organized in groups of four. She met the other three women she was to picket with at the National Woman's Party headquarters. One woman was Peggy Johns; another was a labor organizer in New York for the needle industry; and the third was a lawyer from Wyoming or Arizona. She was at the National Woman's Party headquarters for two or three days before she went out on the picket line. She picketed for only a few days before she was arrested. As soon as the group of four picketers were arrested, another group of four were sent out, which frustrated the authorities because it seemed as though there was an endless line of women picketing the White House. Early on in the picketing process, the women who were arrested were sentenced to three days in the city jail. By the time she began picketing, women were receiving 30 day sentences at the Occoquan Work House. She was informed that she would be arrested if she picketed. However, the idea seemed very exciting and she felt capable of handling the situation. She believes that it was her group of picketers that initiated the first brutal contact with authorities at the Occoquan Work House. The other women in her group were between the ages of 25-35. (2:35-4:12)... As women picketed they either individually carried a banner, or each woman held a post of a large banner. With regard to the books on suffrage written by Doris Stevens and Inez Irwin, she remarks that Stevens was unaware that it was her group that elicited the brutality in the work house, which marked the first real confrontation with the prison administration. (4:12-7:59)... As they picketed, the suffragists were harassed by both men and women who hurled insults at them. The men often yelled obscene things at the women. Although someone also shot out the windows of the National Woman's Party headquarters, but the suffragists were unable to get police protection. The police did not bother the picketers until a crowd gathered, at which time the picketers were arrested for obstructing traffic. Ironically, the crowd obstructed traffic, not the picketers. At the time, the crowds seemed very large and intimidating to her, but she had courage because she was fighting for a cause. The women picketed in shifts; however, she could not recall how many hours each group would picket before a new shift came in. NOW learned about her when she sent an article in to be published in their bulletin. They had a difficult time believing her story until they went to the library and found a book that mentioned her. She recalls seeing a picture of herself picketing in one of the books about the suffrage movement. She also recalls that Doris Stevens' book included a photograph of a group of picketers and she also recognized herself in that picture. (7:59-11:08)... During one of the days she picketed, the police arrested her group of suffragists and took them to the city jail. They were immediately bailed out and appeared in court some time later. The judge was disappointed when he learned she was 21 because she looked very young. However, the NWP did not recruit women to participate in picketing when they were not of legal age. The judge sentenced her group to 30 days in the Occoquan Work House. Prior to this, only hard core suffragists, such as Alice Paul, were sentenced to 30 days in jail. In addition, some of the other women previously arrested were given only three to ten days and spent their sentence in the city jail. After sentencing, her group was sent to the city jail before being moved to the Occoquan Work House. While in the city jail, they devised their political prisoner demand. In essence, they considered themselves political prisoners, innocent of the charge of obstructing traffic and, therefore, refused to work at the Occoquan Work House. She contends that her group's decision to refuse to work marked the beginning of the brutality at the Occoquan Work House. When they arrived at the Work House, there were already a dozen suffragists there. Her group decided they would convince the other women to abide by the political prisoner demand and work refusal. (11:08-12:31)... When she arrived at the Occoquan Work House, her group discussed the political prisoner status with the other suffragists already in the prison. The women were very enthusiastic and all agreed to refuse to work. The following day, the suffragists appeared in the work room and sat with their hands in their laps. The superintendent eventually asked the women to put their work in their laps and told them they were demoralizing the other prisoners in the work room. However, the suffragists refused, stating that they were unjustly arrested and imprisoned, and holding their work in their laps would compromise their position as political prisoners. They refused to work for 26 days. (12:31-16:46)... Eventually, the other women in the prison followed the suffragists' example and also refused to work. She estimates that there were approximately a dozen women in the work room in addition to the suffragists. Peggy Johns became ill and was sent to the prison hospital, where she stayed for the entire 26 days of imprisonment. Kettler visited Johns in the hospital every day. However, on one occasion Johns was not in the hospital and the nurses did not know where she was taken. As she made her way to the superintendent's office, she observed Johns in the hall dressed in her civilian clothes. Johns told Kettler that they were taking her to a psychiatric ward in Washington, DC and to gather the other women to come to her aid. Kettler informed the other women and they rushed into the superintendent's office, demanding that they be allowed to call Washington, DC for assistance. He refused and called in the "Negro" women deputies to handle the situation. The deputies proceeded to beat the women. Considering how the "Negro" women were treated within society, she found it ironic that they were getting an intense joy out of beating the white women. Apparently, the superintendent feared that the "Negro" women would beat the suffragists to death and he called in the male deputies to stop the attack. At that time, he allowed the suffragists to call Washington, DC. (16:46-19:04)... The women contacted the National Woman's Party headquarters and told them what was happening at the Occoquan Work House. Peggy Johns was released from the work house and sent to Washington, DC. Kettler believes that Johns became ill because of the food being served in the work house. During her prison stay, the women were not refusing to eat. The hunger strikes did not occur until after she left the Work House. Kettler believes that Alice Paul was still serving a jail sentence when she left the Work House. When she arrived there, she recalls there were approximately nine to twelve women at the prison and Alice Paul may have been among them. The suffragists at the Work House were arrested at different times and their sentences expired at different times throughout her stay. While in there, the group made decisions together. The women were permitted to read and spent time talking about how they would conduct themselves while in prison. The women were also prescribed prison walks on the grounds of the work house. (19:04-21:08)... The food was the greatest problem at the Occoquan Work House. Besides oatmeal, soup, and bread, she could not recall what other types of food they were served while in prison. The coffee they were served was chicory. The food was very bad and infested with worms. The bread was edible unless it was moldy and littered with rat tracks. She recalls picking worms out of her food before she ate. Many women in the prison lost a lot of weight because they did not eat. Although the prison was given a lot of money to feed the inmates and also grew their own vegetables in a large garden, they never served these to the inmates. The food was very easily spoiled if it was not cooked or eaten within a reasonable period of time. However, prison officials obviously did not consider the proper food preparation procedures, nor did they procure quality food products. (21:08-23:01)... After Peggy Johns was released from the Occoquan Work House and sent back to Washington, DC, the other suffragists were released and served the rest of their sentence out in the city jail. They gained a lot of notoriety because of their actions in the work house and several newspaper reporters came to the city jail to interview them. In addition, they were allowed visitors, who often brought food into the jail from the outside. The food in the city jail was much better than in the Work House. When the women were sent to the city jail, they were placed in solitary confinement; two women to each cell. They were very angry and caused a lot of problems while in jail. For instance, she recalls that when they finished their meals, they threw their plates through the cell bars at the jail house windows and may have even broken some of the windows. She recalls giving another prisoner money to buy her cigarettes; however, she never saw the money or the cigarettes and believes the inmate used this money to purchase narcotics. (23:01-25:12)... At the Occoquan Work House, the women slept in the same dormitory. Each morning, they took turns washing and dressing. The food was the worst problem in the Work House. All of the women suffered because of the worms and poor food quality. For some women, the prison experience was a sacrifice; a lot of them were from upper-class families and accustomed to a better quality of life. In contrast, she was from a poor family and even though her food was always clean, she was not used to a certain type of quality or quantity of food. Nevertheless, it was very difficult for her to have to pick worms out of her food every day. With the exception of the food, the women were not punished for refusing to work because there was nothing the superintendent could do. Every day they sat in the work room all day, except when they were released for their prescribed walks. (25:12-28:11)... Other than the incident over Peggy Johns' attempted removal to a psychiatric ward, there were no other incidents of brutality during her stay at the Occoquan Work House. However, the next group of women sent to the Work House were treated very poorly. In her book, Doris Stevens did not record that Kettler's group were responsible for developing the political prisoner demand and work refusal. Her group arrived at this decision at Peggy Johns' suggestion while they were in the city jail waiting to be transferred to the Occoquan Work House. (28:11-31:18)... While at the Occoquan Work House, she recalls meeting a woman who was a heroin addict. This woman was repeatedly returned to prison because when she was released, a police officer would meet her on the street and arrest her because she did not have an address. She told Kettler this would continue to happen unless someone met her after she was released from prison. The suffragists arranged for someone from the NWP to meet her. After she was released from the work house, she stayed at the headquarters for approximately two or three days. Kettler recalls that she went for a walk with this woman one day. When they came to a building during the walk, the woman went in and did not return. Kettler returned to the NWP headquarters and told them what happened, but there was nothing they could do for this woman. She recalls that the prisoners were never without drugs while they were in jail and prisoners at the Occoquan Work House had the ability to obtain drugs during their prison stay. (31:18-32:00)... While at the Occoquan Work House, the other prisoners followed the suffragists' example and refused to work. Most likely, prison officials were not bothered by suffragists' refusal to work until their actions influenced the other prisoners to do the same. (32:00-33:22)... At their sentencing trial, suffragists argued that they were not obstructing traffic as a result of their picketing actions. They also tried to make statements about suffrage, but did not get very far with these arguments. The lawyer that represented suffragists had been supporting the suffrage movement for many years. (33:22-34:49)... As they picketed, suffragists walked back and forth in front of the White House, carrying a purple, gold, and white banner. She could not recall what slogan was on the banner. There were several supporters who walked by as the women picketed, but they took their lives into their own hands if they expressed their support amongst an anti-suffrage crowd. She ignored the passersby when she picketed. However, this became difficult for suffragists picketing towards the end of the campaign because the crowd often threw things at them. The women did not have any police protection when they picketed, except when they were arrested and placed in prison. (34:49-36:38)... A group of picketers was arrested at the same time and usually transported to the city jail together in the same car or van. They usually were at the city jail for about an hour before someone came and bailed them out. When she considered picketing, she knew that her chances of going to jail were good, but she was not concerned. After she was released from the Work House and then the city jail, she returned to the NWP headquarters. Shortly thereafter, she returned to New York and was contacted by Katherine Hodgins who offered to pay her fare to Everett, Washington. At the time, she was relieved to leave New York and was ready for a new experience. (36:38-38:01)... She was horrified by the way women were treated while in prison. Initially, when she considered picketing and going to jail the idea seemed exciting. However, after experiencing prison, she found that it was frightening. Her experiences at the Occoquan Work House influenced her decision not to return to the picket lines. She also believed that if she was arrested again, she would receive a sentence of 60 days at the Work House. In addition, she feared the type of treatment to which the next contingent of women would be subjected. As a result, she was not courageous enough to return to the picket lines. She believes that none of the women arrested with her returned to the picket lines after their release from the work house. (38:01-40:31)... After her picketing and prison experience, the only woman she kept in touch with was Peggy Johns because she lived in New York. Kettler saw quite a bit of her until her move west. After that, she did not see Johns again until approximately 1960 Kettler visited her in England. She believes that Johns was not very impressed with her and she thought Johns was a "Grand Dame." While in England, Johns took her to several bars. Kettler noticed that whenever a young lady walked into the bar, she came over and kissed Johns on the cheek, which struck Kettler as a very grand gesture. Although Johns invited her to visit again, Kettler never did and they did not see each other again. (40:31-42:22)... She recalls Alice Paul being a very serious and dedicated woman. There was nothing in particular that she could recall regarding Paul's personality or character. In her mind, Paul did not seem like a charismatic woman, only very serious. Although she met several women associated with the NWP, she did not recall any of their names and did not correspond with them after her suffrage activities in Washington, DC ended. Her prison experience did not result in any strong bonds, with the exception of her friendship with Peggy Johns. (42:22-44:58)... When she returned to New York, she did not participate in any suffrage activities, with the exception of marching in a suffrage parade. However, at this time she did not support citizenship of any kind because the vote did not help the working class. Woman's suffrage would only add more votes to the political process , giving the illusion of equality. She noted that Alice Paul continued to fight for the ERA even after women gained the right to vote. Kettler comments on the opposing politics of the radical left and the proponents of the ERA. (44:58-46:04)... Kettler tries to recall the date that she went to Washington, DC, believing that her picketing efforts took place in 1917. end of tape
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