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Mulligan, Rose Echeverria (audio interview #4 of 4)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the final interview with Rose Echeverria Mulligan (pseudonym) conducted in the den of her comfortable suburban home. Eager to talk with a sympathetic person, Mulligan was very candid about her marital difficulties and her health problems. 3/17/1981
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- 2021-08-11
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- SUBJECT BIO - Rose Echeverria Mulligan (pseudonym) worked in defense during her senior year in high school under the "4-4 Plan." She attended four hours of classes and spent the other four hours making bombay doors in the small-scale factory set up by Avion (a subsidiary of Douglas Aircraft) in the Industrial Arts shop at Garfield High School. The last of three children, Echeverria was born in Los Angeles. She worked at the dime store while attending high school, until she joined the "4-4" plan. The pay she received for this work, half of which she contributed to her family, was better than what she had been earning at Grant's. Although she did not like the factory work, she viewed it as a patriotic contribution, helping the young men she knew in the service. However, she had no intention of continuing to work in defense, after graduation. Seeking a job that was not noisy or dirty, she started working as a receptionist after graduation, and continued doing this work until after she married. A year after her marriage, in 1948, she became a full-time homemaker, returning to work briefly in 1951 before her second child was born. After that, she returned to full-time homemaking. Three interviews were held with Mulligan in her home, located on a quiet, tree-lined street in the San Fernando Valley. The furnishings reflected her husband's relatively comfortable salary. She was a willing participant and had no trouble expressing herself. Because she was so open and candid about very personal and painful events in her life, she ultimately decided to use a pseudonym, selecting a name that revealed both her family's Basque roots and her Anglo married name. TOPICS - housing and move to another suburb; neighborhood; children; motherhood; social and club activities; menopause, hysterectomy; emotional problems; marital relationship; and education;social activities; gender expectations; gender roles; college and education; children; family history and family life; parenting; husband; and marital relationship;marital relationship; sex; philosophy towards life, marriage, and divorce; gender expectations; gender roles; and future expectations;Mexican and Anglo identity issues; Anglicization; racism; WWII; political philosophies; feminism; equal rights; gender expectations; gender roles; and sexism;friendships; gender roles; gender relations; attitudes towards feminism, women's liberation, and equal rights; husband and marital relationship; homosexuality; marriage ideals; family life and family history; childdaughter's marriage and grandchildren; and personal philosophies; Note: this side of the interview is only three minutes
- *** File: rrrrmulligan13.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-3:43)... Mulligan wanted to move out of her home in Panorama City because of the gossip and jealousies that existed between the neighbors and their children. She and her husband purchased a new home in Sepulveda with a CalVet loan and a four percent interest rate. They enjoyed more privacy in their new neighborhood. The residents were predominantly retired homeowners who were not particularly pleased when three children moved into the neighborhood. Her children were lonely in their new neighborhood and Mulligan occasionally returned to their old neighborhood so that they could visit with their friends. However, their neighbors "crossed us off" because they moved out of the neighborhood. (3:43-15:23)... When Mulligan moved to Sepulveda, she joined the PTA and placed her daughters in the Brownies, the Girl Scouts, and Rainbow. When he was old enough, Mulligan's son joined the Cub Scouts and she acted as a den mother for a short time. She did not socialize with her neighbors because the women in the neighborhood were "standoffish" compared to the women in Panorama City. Her family often picnicked and barbecued with friends who lived in the Los Angeles area. At the time, the only way to have a social life in the neighborhood was to join clubs and organizations. Mulligan describes her children's activities in the various clubs with which they were associated. (15:23-25:41)... In 1956 (editor's note: she revises this date to 1966 later in the interview), Mulligan began experiencing heavy periods and was admitted to the hospital when she hemorrhaged. She received a hysterectomy at that time. She believed the operation changed her because she began to experience loss of memory and an inability to function properly. Doctors reassured her that her body was adjusting to the loss of her reproduction organs and they prescribed Premarin (HRT) and told to eat well. Her condition worsened and she began to experience anxiety attacks and agoraphobia. She dropped out of her children's social organizations and spent a year trying to recover. Her husband did not understand her illness and was angry because she was not the same person. She moved into a separate bedroom and spent time there alone trying to deal with her health. She finally decided that she had to get out of the house and she enrolled in Valley Junior College. She drew strength from the young kids she attended college with. They dealt with her on an equal level and treated her like a college student, not a wife or a mother. (25:41-28:28)... Prior to her hysterectomy, Mulligan got a job at a market. She worked there for one month and then decided to quit because she did not want to leave her children home alone. A woman watched her children while she went to work. She got another job working at a switchboard and quit just before she started her next menstrual period. She hemorrhaged a month later and she thought that she lost too much blood and it affected her nervous system somehow because she was also anemic. (28:28-30:03)... Mulligan tried to steer her oldest daughter away from marrying her high-school sweetheart and tried to convince her to pursue a college education instead. However, the more she discussed these issues with her daughter, the closer her daughter got to her boyfriend. Mulligan recalculates the date she received a hysterectomy, indicating that the operation occurred in 1966. Her daughter married in 1969 and Mulligan was able to help plan her daughter's wedding. It was after the wedding that Mulligan enrolled in college and began taking courses in the summer. End of tape. *** File: rrrrmulligan14.mp3 (0:00-2:28)... The highlight of her college career was making new friends and carving out a niche for her life without sacrificing her roles as wife and mother. Her husband did not incorporate her into his life. Although they occasionally socialized with friends, he did not like to entertain people in their home. She read articles on entertaining and wanted to live up to the female image presented in magazines. (2:28-6:34)... Mulligan thought she was too young to be a grandmother when she learned that her oldest daughter was expecting a child. At the time, Mulligan was enjoying college and just beginning to find happiness again. Her daughter criticized her for continuing to attend college after her grandson was born. However, Mulligan was determined to finish the semester. Her grandson was born with hydrocephalus, a rare birth defect. She consulted a doctor and was told that her grandson would require several brain surgeries and would not live for very long. She was not emotionally prepared for the trauma that lay ahead for her family. (6:34-15:50)... Mulligan's youngest daughter became engaged at the age of nineteen. She took business courses in high school and attended West Valley Occupational Center and eventually got a job at Host International as a keypunch operator. She quickly moved up the ladder and was a co-supervisor at the time she married. The man her daughter married was already married to another woman and the marriage lasted only six weeks. Their marriage ended when he beat her bloody. Mulligan decided to leave college so that she could devote herself to her children. She blamed her absence in their lives as the cause of their problems. While in college, Mulligan took several psychology courses to help her understand life and human nature. She did not want to meddle in her children's lives and only offered advice and guidance when they asked for it. (15:50-18:48)... Mulligan was determined to send her son to college. He was an intelligent young boy and expressed an interest in learning and obtaining a college education. She felt that he should have a chance to go to college because he "going to be man and head of a family." He took college preparatory courses in high school. When he graduated from high school, he enrolled in West Valley Junior College because his father refused to pay the tuition for a university education. (18:48-29:06)... Mulligan started looking for work in the early 1970s. She realized that she was not qualified for very many things. She was approaching fifty and decided to sacrifice her college education so that her son could go to college. During these years, her husband was a "shadow" in their lives. He purchased a motorcycle and went riding with his friends on the weekends. When this threatened his health, he took up golf. Mulligan was not a part of these activities and they began living separate lives. She continued to busy herself with her children's lives and developed a "hard luck" personality. She felt sorry for her daughter who was mirroring her life in trying to be a good wife and mother. Mulligan got a new lease on life when her other daughter offered to take her to Hawaii. Mulligan had never taken a vacation and felt that riding in an airplane was a true test to her agoraphobia. However, her daughter's concern with making her mother happy somehow made Mulligan feel "old and shriveled." (29:06-30:57)... Mulligan's husband was not happy and she discovered that he had an affair when he was going through his motorcycle-riding phase. She berated her husband for having an affair when his grandson was in the hospital, his daughter was suffering, and Mulligan was exerting herself trying to get a college education so that she could get a job. *** File: rrrrmulligan15.mp3 (0:00-11:30)... Note: there is an interruption in this segment when Mulligan answers the telephone. Mulligan's husband had an affair to escape the problems in the family. She vowed to make him suffer for his transgressions and unleashed all of the pent up anger and frustration that she concealed over the life of their marriage. She could not understand why he did not end their relationship instead of having an affair and dishonoring his name. Their sex life had always been "lousy." She knew that something was missing because she heard stories about other women's sex lives. She felt partly responsible for his affair and believed that their marriage was a mistake from the beginning. After discovering her husband's affair, she distanced herself from her husband. Even though she had opportunities to have affairs, she did not want to add any more drama to her life and was not the type of person to elicit flirtations with the opposite sex. Mulligan chose to stay in her marriage because she had to deal with other family problems. She did not have a job and had no means of financial support. (11:30-17:11)... The women in Mulligan's neighborhood told her that affairs were typical of men and that women just "put up" with this behavior. The important part of a marriage for a wife was money. The way that Mulligan exacted revenge against her husband was opening up charge accounts, buying clothes, and getting her hair done. She did not want to have an affair because it was degrading and an inappropriate way to end a marriage. She also tried to get close to her husband and work on their sex life in an effort to deal with their marital issues. (17:11-21:36)... When Mulligan began having problems paying her charge accounts, she began looking into their financial records. Her husband was receiving disability pensions from the US Army and the fire department. His salary at Lockheed was $500.00 a week and included benefits. After poring over their financial statements, she realized that her husband was stashing away thousands of dollars without telling her. At that point, she started saving some of her allowance. She believes that her husband has always had "one foot out the door and one foot in." (21:36-25:13)... Mulligan talks more about her husband's affair and how he used it in their relationship. (25:13-31:08)... Talking about her future with her husband, Mulligan comments that she would like to be self-sufficient, employed, and divorced from him. End of tape. *** File: rrrrmulligan16.mp3 (0:00-8:32)... Except for speaking Spanish, Mulligan does not feel that she has anything in common with native Mexicans or Mexican immigrants living in the US. She learned at an early age that Mexican men would not make good husbands and that men did not want to marry Mexican women because they did not want their children to be Mexican. She subscribed to these ideals and married outside. However, she now believes that this was a mistake and is one of the reasons her marriage has been difficult. She discusses the Anglicization of her Mexican girlfriends. (8:32-15:14)... Mexican American values are completely different than Mexican immigrants'. When she was growing up in Los Angeles, the Mexicans wanted to become US citizens. The boys joined the service and expected to benefit from the GI Bill. However, when they returned from the war they were confused. She became disillusioned with their lackluster attitudes and limited prospects. Her brother's experiences with racial epithets left him with a bitter feeling towards his ethnicity and he refused to marry a Mexican woman. He reasoned that fair-skinned Anglos with blonde hair and blue eyes eased his tensions. Mexican immigrants do not wish to assimilate into the Anglo culture. She does not want to identified with Mexicans for fear that it will restrict her opportunities in the future. (15:14-21:46)... Mulligan does not act "Mexican" and does not have dark skin. When she moved to Panorama City, she was open about her ethnicity in an effort to weed out people with racial biases. She talks about her Polish and Jewish friends and her observation that racial prejudice existed against other ethnic groups. (21:46-23:55)... Americans were brainwashed by Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Winston Churchill to get involved in the war. Even though the US bailed England out, British people have a superiority complex about their status in the world. Mulligan believes that as long as human nature is motivated by competitive values and racial biases, the world risks destruction. People should be taught to respect the ideals of equality and unity in order to preserve our nations. (23:55-28:22)... Mulligan has always been a feminist. She believes that because women are the ones who "rock the cradle," they have stopped men from destroying the earth. Women are responsible for instilling honor and honesty in society. In terms of equal rights, she recalls thinking about joining the Marines during WWII so that she could help the best men fight the war. She thinks that women should help each other more often. Men consider women their maids. Whenever women challenge men, they are called lesbians. (28:22-31:26)... Mulligan discusses a close friend who works at the Federal Reserve. When Mulligan married, they stopped spending time together because Mulligan was a housewife and a mother and Vicki was a career woman. Working at the Federal Reserve, Vicki worked with several women, many of whom were lesbians. Mulligan got tired of listening to her friend refer to lesbians negatively. End of tape. *** File: rrrrmulligan17.mp3 (0:00-5:23)... Mulligan continues to discuss her friends attitude towards lesbians. She reassured Vicki that her reason for wanting to re-establish their friendship was not to pursue a lesbian relationship. However, she encouraged Vicki to accept the fact that there were lesbians in society. She does not think that Vicki was involved in any extramarital affairs with the men she worked with. Vicki spoke positively about the men from her but referred to their wives as "bitches." Mulligan reminded her that behind every gorgeous, intelligent, and well-dressed man was a wife at home making sure that he stayed that way. (5:23-11:52)... Career women think that retiring will be fun and games, only to find out that home life is dreary and laden with domestic responsibilities. She feels that taking care of her husband and children entitles her to an equal share. However, unless there are laws that protect women, they will continue to be dependent on men. It is important for women to have access to child care so that they can go out to work, earn a decent living, and "buy their independence." As long as they are dependent on a man they stand the chance of being abandoned, which is something that she is dealing with in her own marriage. She is trying to build up the strength to part ways with her husband, but wonders if death is the only way their marriage will end. She digresses regarding Margaret Mead's feminist ideals. (11:52-21:26)... Though women talk about being liberated, Mulligan believes that women are not liberated until they go through some sort of emotional or physical trial. She was never fully liberated because she did not surround herself with strong women. The women in Panorama City were defined through marriage and the women in Sepulveda were defined by money and material possessions. Mulligan assumed the latter role because she was not capable of entering the work force and earning anywhere near the amount men make. She believe that men earn more wages than women because of the male-centered "buddy system" that exists in the workplace. She believes that these relationship verge on homosexuality, but without actual sexual contact. She once accused her husband of being a homosexual because in addition to not showing any sexual interest in her, he was "looking so pretty and buttering up to his bosses." Mulligan believes that homosexuality among American men developed during WWII when men were thrown together on Navy ships and in the South Pacific. When they returned from the war, men were confused and covered up their sexual preference by marrying women. (21:26-29:10)... Even when she is among girlfriends, she thinks about what she is going to make for dinner. She wonders what women want out of life. She wants the same things that her mother wanted: shelter, independence, money, and dignity. Her mother got married because she wanted children. Mulligan believes that women will be liberated when they can have children without the obligation of marriage. She is holding on to her "dead" marriage for financial reasons, but also attempting to find employment in case her husband leaves. (29:10-30:38)... Mulligan's children are aware that their parents' marriage is failing. Her second daughter may be "liberated" because she does not want any children and will probably never re-marry. Mulligan believes that women cannot find true liberation if they have a family because it is too difficult for women to deny their maternal instincts. (30:38-31:16)... Mulligan discusses oldest daughter's marriage. End of tape. *** File: rrrrmulligan18.mp3 (0:00-3:27)... Mulligan continues to discuss her daughter's marriage and the tug-of-war that may occur over her children if she divorces her husband. She thinks it is better for people to work together to find solutions to their problems rather than fighting each other. End of tape.
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