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MacNeil, Kathleen (audio interview #3 of 3)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the final, long interview of Kathleen MacNeil conducted at the kitchen table in her small, one-bedroom efficiency unit in a senior housing project. Although she still punctuated her interview with laughter and pantomime, she became sad in talking about her son's death. 9/22/1980
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- 2021-06-21
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- *** File: rrrkmacneil12.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-3:36)... MacNeil and her four children lived in a small, one-bedroom apartment during the war. Her daughters slept on a double bed in the bedroom and her youngest son slept on a cot next to the bed. Her oldest son slept on a day bed in the living room. When MacNeil came home from work in the mornings, she saw her children off to school and then went to bed in the bedroom. At meal times, there was never enough room for the entire family to sit at the dinner table. As her children got older, they were always coming and going and it became more difficult for her to gather everyone for dinner. On Sundays, they doubled up on their sleeping arrangements to make room for MacNeil. (3:36-11:57)... MacNeil talks about her children's exposure to Mexicans/Chicanos while in school. Her son Kenny befriended two Mexican boys his first day of school and they remained friends as adults. Although they all wore pegged pants, including her son, these Mexican boys were not Pachucos or zoot suiters. Her daughter,Grace, told MacNeil about the type of clothing, make up, and hairstyles worn by the Mexican girls at school. MacNeil's daughters did not follow the trends set by Mexicans. Even though her son wore pegged pants, MacNeil believes that all boys wore that style regardless of their race. The White boys were called Patties and boys in Mexican gangs were referred to as Pachucos. (11:57-13:48)... MacNeil remembers when the zoot suit riots erupted in Los Angeles. At the time, she was attending courses at Lincoln High School and felt tense when she left school in the evenings because of the violence that occurred in her community. She never heard about Mexican gangs being violent towards women. She recalls that servicemen instigated the riots because they resented the freedom expressed by the Pachucos and zoot suiters in their clothing styles and appearances. (13:48-17:15)... Note: there is an interruption in this segment. She began taking courses at Lincoln High School while she was employed at Lockheed. A Black woman she met at Lockheed suggested that she take drafting classes so that she could work in that section of the plant. MacNeil started out in drafting and also took Spanish, English, and mathematics in the evenings before her shift started at Lockheed. School was less expensive than going to the movies and MacNeil wanted something to do with her time when she was not working and taking care of her home and children. (17:15-21:15)... She was employed in clerical work when she was laid off from Lockheed in November 1945. Although she had accumulated a lot of seniority by the end of the war, there were quite a few people still working in the office when she was laid off. There was a lot of "wheeling and dealing" in the office so that certain people could keep their jobs and avoid the layoffs. She collected her termination papers and handed in her identification badge when she was laid off. She collected unemployment until she got a new job in January 1946. She did not think about the possibility of returning to Lockheed because WWII "was another war to end all wars" and there would never be a need to produce war planes again. (21:15-21:58)... MacNeil could not recall the specific process of applying for unemployment. She believes that she had to go to an office and fill out some paperwork. There was a two-week waiting period before money was distributed. The unemployment office did not place her in any jobs during the term she accepted unemployment. (21:58-24:28)... When she was laid off in November 1945, her older children were working and contributing some money to the family income. This money and her unemployment compensation was just enough to cover their living expenses. Lockheed sent her a Thanksgiving dinner so that she could feed her family and they spent Christmas with her brother. All of her children understood the severity of their financial situation and each separately approached her and told her not to buy them anything for Christmas. (24:28-28:46)... Jobs were scarce after the war and it was difficult to find anything in both the industrial and clerical fields. She believes that she found a job at an insurance agency through the classified advertisements. She worked 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. five days a week. She describes her responsibilities at the insurance agency. She could not recall what the living arrangements were like in her home now that she was home during the evenings. All four of her children lived in the apartment until her daughter Grace married and moved out in 1947. End of tape. *** File: rrrkmacneil13.mp3 (0:00-2:56)... MacNeil could not recall any remarkable differences that occurred in her lifestyle during the postwar period while she was working for the insurance agency. She did not have an active social life before or after the war, so there were no changes in that area. Occasionally, she took her children to the museum or the beach on Sundays and she spent a lot of time at the library in the evenings. She talks about a man she was interested in when she worked at Lockheed. She decided not to pursue him when she found out that he was separated from his wife because she knew how that felt. She did not think about getting married again and never met anyone interesting enough to change her mind. (2:56-6:40)... MacNeil worked at the insurance agency for about a year. She quit that job when she found a civil service position at the Department of Water and Power. She describes her responsibilities in this position. She worked nights, indicating that she preferred the night shift because she could sleep during the day while her children were in school. While she was at the Department of Water and Power she went to school. (6:40-14:40)... She discusses her living arrangements during the period she worked at the Department of Water and Power. After her daughter Grace graduated from high school, she got a job with MacNeil at the insurance agency. She married in 1947 and gave birth to a boy in 1948. MacNeil did not want her daughter to marry at such a young age, but there was nothing she could do to convince her otherwise. MacNeil's son Kenny also married in the late 1940s. At one point, there were seven people living with MacNeil in her one-bedroom apartment, which included Grace and her husband and child and Kenny and his wife. (14:40-16:01)... She talks about the activities of her younger children, Kathleen and Bill, in the postwar period. When MacNeil started working days at the insurance agency, she went to father's night at her children's school because she was not available to go to mother's day, which was held in the afternoon. (16:01-23:46)... MacNeil describes how she met her best friend Dolores. They became fast friends and remained close until Dolores died. Her husband was a truck driver and was frequently out of town on long hauls. In his absence, MacNeil and Dolores went to dances in the Los Angeles area. Eventually, MacNeil and Dolores expanded their social circle to five or six women. When they drove home at night after dances they liked to laugh about the things men said to them earlier in the evening. MacNeil and her friends went out to dance, not to meet men. The style of dancing they enjoyed was ballroom and very few people she danced with were interested in the jitterbug or swing. MacNeil always wore a dress when she went out dancing. (23:46-27:24)... She discusses her work history at the Department of Water and Power. She worked there for fourteen years, during which time her younger children graduated from high school and married. She digresses regarding her son Bill. End of tape. *** File: rrrkmacneil14.mp3 (0:00-4:24)... MacNeil continues to discuss her son Bill's marriage to a Jewish woman. Bill was interested in an acting career. He took acting classes in junior college and also received scholarships to at least two acting schools. However, he promised his father-in-law that if his acting career did not take off in two years, he would quit and pursue a professional career. He took accounting courses at Pasadena City College in the evenings and received a degree in two years. After he graduated, he obtained his accounting license and started working in that field. His wife left him a short time later and remarried. He obtained custody of his daughter after she began having problems with her stepfather. (4:24-11:15)... MacNeil continues to talk about her children, focusing on Bill and Kathleen. By 1958, all of her children had left the nest and MacNeil felt both relieved and lonely. However, she saw them often because they lived nearby. In the mean time, her best friend Dolores moved to El Monte. On the weekends, MacNeil frequently drove out to Dolores's house and stayed the weekend with her family. (11:15-22:41)... She decided to leave the Department of Water and Power in 1962 so that she could travel. She withdrew money from her pension plan and left for Europe with about $2,000 in her pocket. She survived in Europe on five dollars a day. She occasionally met other Americans on vacation and she once visited a friend in London. For the most part, however, she traveled alone. She traveled around Europe for about a year before she began to run out of money and decided to return to the US. (22:41-25:46)... When MacNeil returned to the US after traveling through Europe, she moved in with her son Kenny until she got back on her feet. She took several civil service exams and was eventually hired to work in the men's jail of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. She describes her responsibilities in this position. She again worked the night shift and was required to wear many different hats at this job. She was constantly moving from one apartment to the next during this period because of maintenance problems. (25:46-29:54)... While MacNeil was employed in the sheriff's department, she made friends with a few of her female co-workers, but they never did anything social outside of work. She spent most of her free time taking drives and visiting her children. She digresses regarding her son Kenny, who died in 1971 from liver disease. For many years, MacNeil did not realize her son was an alcoholic. He was constantly moving from one job to the next, but she thought it was because he got better job offers not because of his drinking problem. End of tape. *** File: rrrkmacneil15.mp3 (0:00-5:21)... She continues to discuss her son's struggle with alcoholism. After he died in 1971, she took a few days off from work. She worked for another year before she retired at the age of sixty-five. She did not receive pension payments from the sheriff's department for two years after she retired. She supports herself with her pension and social security, both of which are necessary to pay for her living expenses in a senior citizen community. (5:21-7:57)... After she retired, MacNeil kept herself busy by taking courses at the city college. She stopped going, however, when violence erupted on campus. She spends most of her time now doing handwork and other crafts at home. (7:57-13:55)... In 1974, MacNeil went to London with her daughter Grace for three weeks. She continued to travel while in retirement and visited her family in Boston both in 1975 and 1976. While there, she stayed with a niece who convinced her to get a piano and take up lessons. When MacNeil returned to California, she purchased a small piano and began taking private lessons. She eventually enrolled in piano courses at Pasadena City College. She also enjoys swimming in her free time. (13:55-15:14)... MacNeil talks about her interest in working with double cross sticks. This activity was important to her and "saved my reason all this time." (15:14-16:13)... She occasionally visits with a woman who lives near her in the senior complex, but she does not socialize with her or any other tenants outside the complex. She has a lot of acquaintances in the unit, but she does not enjoy spending too much time with them because they argue a lot and "everything is always a big federal case." (16:13-24:00)... Note: there is a buzzing noise in the background during this segment. MacNeil talks about her relationship with her children and her grandchildren. Her daughter Grace obtained a college degree. During her second marriage, she enrolled in law school and currently works as a law librarian at a law firm in Los Angeles. Both of her marriages ended in divorce. MacNeil's daughter Kathleen also went back to school and obtained a high school diploma. She works at an electronics company in the office. She also married and divorced twice. MacNeil has fourteen grandchildren and four great grand children whom she rarely sees. (24:00-25:10)... MacNeil could not recall how old she was when she started going through menopause. She never experienced severe menopausal symptoms and went through that phase in her life with ease. She never had any problems having children either. As she aged, she began to experience minor problems with her ears and her eyes; however, she has managed to stay in relatively good health. (25:10-26:12)... MacNeil reflects on her experiences at Lockheed during the war, stating, "At the time, it seemed very important what we were doing and we hoped it was." She cannot say, however, that working at Lockheed impacted her life in any way and she forgot most of her activities there after she left the plant in 1945. Overall, she thinks that everyone's life changed during the war regardless of where they worked. (26:12-28:27)... Her daughter Kathleen believes that if her mother could change anything in her past she would not have married her father. MacNeil rejected this idea because if she never married her husband she would not have had four beautiful children. When asked how she would do things differently if she was a young woman starting out in life, MacNeil says that she would not want to be in that position partly because women have so many problems dealing with the opposite sex. End of tape. *** File: rrrkmacneil16.mp3 (0:00-5:04)... MacNeil discusses the changes in women's lives over the years. If she had the chance to start over, she would go back to school and get a degree. Women of her generation were restricted in many ways whereas young women today can do anything they want. She talks about her grandchildren, indicating that one of her grandson's lives with his girlfriend and they have a child together. She feels that it may be better for couples to live together before they marry to determine if their relationship can withstand marriage. (5:04-6:26)... Initially, MacNeil thought that the women's movement was "pretty damn silly" because of actions like bra burning. After she learned more about purpose of the movement, however, she decided to support women's efforts. Still, she cannot understand why women want gender equality, stating "I'd rather stay being better than them [men]." (6:26-8:19)... MacNeil discusses her views on abortion. (8:19-15:07)... In the 1950s, her husband came to California to visit his children. He came home drunk one evening and the next morning MacNeil told him that he had to leave and that she never wanted to see him again. After he left her apartment, he made a $7 long distance call and charged the toll to MacNeil's telephone bill. She finally filed for divorce in the 1960s. She attempted to see her ex-husband when she returned to Boston to visit family in the 1970s, but was unsuccessful in locating him. (15:07-16:16)... MacNeil thinks that retirement has been the happiest time in her life because she has everything she needs. She enjoyed raising her children even though they went through some difficult times. She also was very happy in the first few years of her marriage. End of tape.
- SUBJECT BIO - Kathleen MacNeil came to California to escape her alcoholic husband in 1941, and almost immediately got a job at Lockheed Aircraft. The last of seventh children, MacNeil began working after one year of high school, first as a clerical worker and then in a dress factory in Boston. She then began to waitress, first in Groton, Connecticut and then in Florida, until she married. She remained a full-time homemaker, taking care of her four children, until she went back to work in 1940. Although her defense job paid more than her various pink collar jobs, it was still very difficult to support her and her four children. Feeling that there was not much promise for the future in the aircraft industry, after the layoffs, MacNeil went to work first at an insurance company and then entered clerical work in Civil Service. She held various jobs in city and county agencies until her retirement in 1971. MacNeil contacted the Rosie the Riveter project at her daughter's urging. Three long interviews were conducted with her, seated around the kitchen table in her small, one-bedroom efficiency unit in a senior housing project. The major piece of furniture in the small living room was a spinet piano, with a metronome sitting atop it. Records and books on music all testify to her interest. MacNeil projected vitality and confidence, and was a great performer, frequently gesturing, posing and pantomiming her responses. She was highly articulate, self-directed and expansive in her interviews, requiring little prompting from the interviewer. Although she enjoyed the interview process, she became saddened at times, like when she talked about her deceased brother or her son's death. TOPICS - living arrangements; children; Mexican-American community; Pachucos; zoot suit riots; clothing styles of the youth; education; postwar layoffs; unemployment compensation; economic hardship; and job at insurance agecivil service work; job at the Department of Water and Power; living arrangements; children; friendships; social life; and dancing;children; travel; work at men's jail for Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department; living arrangements; social life; and friendships;retirement activities; senior living; social life; family life; children and grandchildren; menopause; health; impact of war work; reflections on her life; gender relations; and attitude towards modern women;attitude towards modern women; views on women's movement and abortion; husband and divorce; and reflections on her life;
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