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MacNeil, Kathleen (audio interview #2 of 3)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the second, rather long interview of Kathleen MacNeil conducted at the kitchen table in her small, one-bedroom efficiency unit in a senior housing project. As before, she was a great performer, punctuating her narrator with laughter, broad gestures and pantomime. She required little prompting and was highly expansive in her interviews. Unfortunately, there is a rumbling sound on all tape sides of this interview, the result of some equipment interference. 9/17/1980
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- *** File: rrrkmacneil6.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-1:07)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil clarifies an earlier statement she made about not making any friends when she was younger. Dating boys involved meeting and dancing with them at dances. Girls went to dances together because "if you went with a date, well that was it and you were stuck with him the whole evening." (1:07-12:28)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil talks at length about the time she and her friend Catherine packed up and hitchhiked to New York when they were eighteen years old. They were in New York not more than a few days when the police showed up at their boarding house and placed them on a train back to Boston. They did not tell their families about their plans until after they arrived in New York and sent them postcards. MacNeil and girlfriend thought New York was glamorous. They imagined themselves getting a good job and living in a beautiful apartment like the women in the movies. (12:28-15:55)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. She continues to discuss her New York adventure. They heard that Greenwich Village was the "focal point of everything. All the artists and everybody interesting lived there, so naturally that is where we wanted to go." Prior to running away to New York, MacNeil thought about making it on her own. When she was seventeen, she moved out of her mother's home and rented a room in a boarding house. She only stayed there one night because "I was afraid and I wanted to go home." (15:55-23:44)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil talks about her girlfriends, indicating that the few friends she had never judged or criticized her and she felt the most comfortable around them than anyone else. She had a close girlfriend during each stage of her life. While living Glasgow, Connecticut, MacNeil met two women, one with a bad reputation and another one who was a single mother and supported her family by working as a prostitute. MacNeil understood why she had sex for money and continued to be her friend. She also cultivated close friendships when she lived in Norwich, Connecticut and California. (23:44-26:08)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. She agrees that she had a different outlook on life than most women she knew. She attributes this to her upbringing and the freedom she had when she was young. Her parents were well read and allowed her to read whatever she wanted. She recalls being reprimanded in the sixth grade for reading George Du Maurier's, Trilby. (26:09-27:43)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil's father was a member of a union and insisted that the buy only products with a union label. Although she could not recall the name of the union, it covered his trade as a roofer. Her father read the newspaper when he came home from work and discussed topics ranging from politics to crime with her mother in front of the children. Her father was a Democrat; however, she could not recall any specific opinions he had regarding political matters. End of tape. *** File: rrrkmacneil7.mp3 (0:07-7:06)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil talks about the time she dated a gangster named Dixie. They went together for a year before she learned that one of the ways he supported himself was by robbing a fur coat warehouse in New York. He once asked her to "work" for him and offered to pay her $25 to ride to New York with him because police would be less suspicious if they saw a woman in the car. When MacNeil told her brother about her boyfriend's job offer, he told her to stay away from him. He talked about the things he wanted her to do after they got married and she thought he was crazy. (7:06-8:22)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. Before she met her husband, MacNeil was in a serious relationship with a boy for two years. After they broke up, she went to work at the resort in Connecticut and met her husband. When she returned to Boston, her ex-boyfriend tried to patch things up, but she told him that she was going steady with someone else. (8:22-16:11)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. When asked about what sorts of sexual activities she engaged in while she was dating, MacNeil responds, "Please, I was not that kind of a girl!" Sometimes there was light petting that occurred while she was on dates. When she dated the gangster, he never pressured her for sex and never went beyond kissing her on the cheek or the hand at the end of their dates. She describes a particularly harrowing incident when two men drove her out to the suburbs and tried to force themselves on her. (16:11-19:08)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil went to dances at several different dance halls throughout Boston. It cost twenty-five cents to get into the dance hall. There was always live music by a local band, but no one that was particularly famous. Men always asked women to dance. Women typically did not dance together because there was a stigma that if you had to dance with a woman it was because you could not get a man to ask you to dance. She usually went to dance halls every night of the week. The halls were not open on Sundays, so she and her girlfriends got their dancing fix by crashing wedding receptions. *** File: rrrkmacneil8.mp3 (0:00-3:16)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil did not know what to expect when she got to California. She figured that she would move in with her sister and get a job somewhere to support her family. She did not intend on getting back together with her husband and knew that he would never return to California because "he would be glad to be free of his responsibilities." (3:16-4:43)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. Her twelve-year-old daughter, Grace, took her brother to kindergarten. MacNeil does not believe she enrolled her children in school because she was too busy working. (4:43-7:33)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil describes a typical day at home before she went into work at 11:00 p.m. (7:33-11:42)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil walked a few blocks to catch the bus that transported Lockheed employees to several different plants in the Los Angeles area. Her shift started at midnight and ended at 7:00 a.m. She was never afraid to walk alone at night. She eventually got to know the people with whom she rode on the bus. She recalls riding with a Black employee who also was a member of the Lockheed tennis club. When the company organized a tennis tournament he was not allowed to play because of his race. Most people did not think anything of it, but those close to him were shocked by the way he was treated. (11:42-15:31)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. She talks about the three-day application process, during which she filled out paperwork, took several tests, and received a physical examination. Although she could not recall the questions asked on the aptitude tests, she remembers that the tests measured her mechanical abilities because she was later told that she did not have any. She did not think these tests made any sense because the company was interested in hiring riveters and "it didn't matter if you were a genius at something else." She believes that the government gave Lockheed allowances for the number of employees they hired and riveting was a universal placement for people with no other skills. She could not recall what type of training she received before going to work at Lockheed. After she was hired to work as a riveter, she had no idea what to expect. She had a vision in her head of what riveting entailed and felt confident that she was up for the task. (15:31-17:51)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. When she walked into the plant on her first day everything seemed to be moving in a state of confusion. She describes the plant itself as "drab and dull" in contrast to the airplanes and the assembly lines. The noise in the plant was deafening. It was overwhelming for her to imagine that the airplanes in production were going to be used to carry soldiers into battle. She talks about her views on war and the military draft. She states that during the war people "were all pepped up and brainwashed to help the war effort and to make the world safe for democracy." (17:51-20:42)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil could not recall how she was assigned to a department her first day on the job. The women on her crew were both young and old and several of them had children. She recalls working with an older woman who bragged about her son's position at the Red Cross. After learning how much money he made, MacNeil vowed never to contribute anything other than blood to the Red Cross. She describes the section of the airplane she was assigned and what her riveting responsibilities entailed. (20:42-23:42)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. She did not have any problems holding or shooting a rivet gun. She was assigned to work with a partner who bucked the rivets. MacNeil never took turns bucking because she was claustrophobic and did not like to be inside the airplane. The women she worked with understood her fears and were willing to do all of the bucking. MacNeil did not think too much about her skill level. Her thoughts concentrated on making a living and doing a good job so that she would not endanger any soldiers fighting in the war. She could not recall ever having a bad inspection and if she did, she was never responsible for drilling out and redoing her rivets. (23:42-24:33)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. After her shift ended, MacNeil went home and tap danced because it helped her relax. Her youngest daughter did not like this and would cry, so she stopped doing it. (24:33-28:27)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. She went through several leadmen while she was at Lockheed. Most of the men at Lockheed were older. The only time she saw young men in the plant was on the weekends when servicemen were hired to sweep the floors so that they could earn some spending money while they were in town. MacNeil believes that the leadmen and supervisors accepted women in the plant because "that was all they had to work with" during the war. One of her leadmen teased her about her skills, but she did not pay any attention to him because no one else ever told her she was doing a bad job. She digresses regarding food rationing during the war. End of tape. *** File: rrrkmacneil9.mp3 (0:08-0:41)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil mentions that during her generation no one talked about their self-identity or had "these long philosophical talks about anything," like they do today. (0:41-2:46)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. The majority of people in MacNeil's crew were women, as were most of the employees at Lockheed. Lockheed hired women during the war because of the lack of manpower and "the more people they hired the more money they made." After the war, however, women were expected to leave their defense jobs. MacNeil did not think about the future and how women would be treated after the war. Like the Depression, she thought the war was never going to end and that things would stay the same on the home front. (2:46-7:27)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil liked working at Lockheed, but she did not think her job would turn into a career. After about a year working as a riveter, she got tired of production work and requested a transfer into a clerical position. She describes her responsibilities in this position, during which time she worked days. When she began having problems managing her work schedule and her children, she was transferred back to the night shift and placed in another clerical position that involved counting and inventorying parts. (7:27-11:29)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. She discusses her children's namesakes and the circumstances that led her to name her second daughter Kathleen. (11:29-14:16)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil describes her clerical position at Lockheed which involved counting and inventorying parts. She did not think that the plant had an established inventory position, but simply opened the position so they could put someone to work. She was supposed to use a calculator when counting parts, but was so good at math that she found it easier to use her head instead. (14:16-19:41)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. Although MacNeil befriended many of her co-workers at Lockheed, they did not socialize outside of work. She ate lunch with her co-workers and they visited during their work breaks. When she worked in the office, a few of the girls were deaf and MacNeil tried to communicate with them by learning signs for the alphabet. The women she worked with ranged in age from their early twenties to their early forties. Some of her co-workers were single mothers like MacNeil. (19:41-23:44)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. The young, single women did not talk to MacNeil about their social lives. She remembers going out with her sister during the war and the streets were full of young men on leave from the service, who would try to pick them up. She never accepted any dates from the men who made advances towards her. She did not go to any dances during the war. She remembers that the Lockheed employees who were musicians played music during the lunch hour, but no one danced because "there were no men around." MacNeil was never interested in going to USO dances because she could not compete with the young women and the movie stars who attended those functions. (23:44-27:53)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. In addition to music, Lockheed organized sporting activities, square dancing, and a riding club for employees. MacNeil joined the equestrian club and met other Lockheed employees at Griffith Park to go horseback riding in the evenings before her shift. She became good friends with two women in the club who worked at different plants. MacNeil digresses regarding her clerical job at Lockheed, indicating that she was in constant contact with other plants via telephone. End of tape. *** File: rrrkmacneil10.mp3 (0:00-1:13)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil continues to discuss the recreational activities at Lockheed. (1:13-13:23)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. When MacNeil moved into a clerical position at Lockheed, she was transferred to the day shift. It was difficult for her to manage days because she was always tired. She also did not like her children coming home to an empty house after school. When she began having problems with her son Kenny, she returned to the night shift. She talks about her son's behavioral problems and the time he was picked up by the police. Although she did not consider her son a juvenile delinquent, she associated bad behavior with kids who wore pegged pants and their hair in a duck tail - which is how he looked when she picked him up from the police station. Looking back, MacNeil does not believe that she was a good mother because she let everything upset her and did not handle problems with her children in a calm and rational manner. (13:23-17:18)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. She continues to discuss her family life and the problems she had raising four children. Her daughter Grace basically took care of the house when MacNeil was not around. She never had any behavioral problems with Grace. However, she was constantly going to her children's school to address problems with Kenny and Kathleen. MacNeil confided in her co-workers at Lockheed about her children's misbehavior. (17:18-21:10)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. When she first started at Lockheed she was making $34 a week and working six days a week. She could not recall what her wages were when she transferred to the clerical position, but believes she only worked five days a week and occasionally on Saturdays. It was always difficult to manage household expenses because she did not have enough money coming in. Her two oldest children worked part-time jobs to help make ends meet. In addition to the lack of money, it was difficult to get certain types of food during the war because of rationing. (21:10-23:43)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. She was responsible for maintaining her household. She did not delegate any chores or responsibilities to her children. Her daughter Grace would occasionally do things around the house to help her mother. MacNeil usually did her grocery shopping in the afternoons before she went to work. Housecleaning and laundry was reserved for Sundays. She did not do anything social on her only day off because she was too busy with her household responsibilities. Although raising four children was hard, they had a good time together listening to the radio and entertaining themselves. (23:43-25:18)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil discusses what her expectations were for her children. She always thought that her son Bill would be successful with his life. She hoped that her children would get good jobs and live a decent life. Although she did not think she was a good mother, she did everything in her power to put food on the table so that her children would not go hungry. (25:18-27:50)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. During the war, she contributed to the PTA but was not involved in PTA activities. She attended parent's or father's night at her children's school when those events were held. She did not feel awkward about going to father's night because a lot of other women were in similar circumstances. Her son Bill was in school plays and she never missed his performances. She attended her children's graduations from junior high school and remembers when the principal told her, "Well Mrs. MacNeil, we had to sweat blood but we got them through." (27:50-29:07)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. Her husband never provided her with any financial support for his children and he never visited them after they moved to California. He sent MacNeil $100 the first Christmas they lived in California. She spent $25 on each child and then wrote her husband a letter telling him what she bought for their children. She never received a response from him. End of tape. *** File: rrrkmacneil11.mp3 (0:00-0:24)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil did not see any reason to divorce her husband as long as they were separated. Besides, getting a divorce cost money that she did not have during the war. (0:24-1:41)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. She occasionally spent time with her sister and her brother and sister-in-law during the war years, but they were all very busy working. She did not turn to these family members every time she had a problem, but did not feel alone as long as they were in her lives. (1:41-5:25)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil joined the union when she started working at Lockheed. She occasionally attended union meetings during which past minutes were read and people gave speeches. She could not recall any specific union grievances filed by her co-workers. She did not file any grievances and the only time she requested any assistance from the union was when she asked a shop steward to help her transfer back to the night shift. Most of her co-workers belonged to the union. She talks about a female neighbor who was active in the union. MacNeil remembers overhearing a child tell this woman's child "You're an AF of L" as if it were a curse word. (5:25-8:54)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. Many of the people she worked with at Lockheed moved to California from different parts of the country. She tended to lump these people in with the rest of the "Okies" and recalls that it was difficult for her to understand them because of their accents. The plant also employed Mexican and Black people. MacNeil did not notice any racial discrimination occur within the plant, except for the time a Black man was told that he could not participate in the company's tennis tournament. (8:54-10:01)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. She describes the office she worked in at Lockheed. She believes there were thirty to forty people employed in her clerical department. After MacNeil transferred into clerical work, she never wanted to go back into production. (10:01-15:14)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil hoped that she would keep her job at Lockheed after the war, but everyone knew that layoffs were inevitable. There were several phases of layoffs right after the war, but she was not one of the first to go. When she was finally laid off at the end of 1945, "it seemed like an awful blow and I didn't know what I was going to do." However, she was confident that she would find work somewhere else because she had to support her family. She accepted unemployment for about six to eight weeks after she was laid off. In the mean time, she looked for work and recalls that the job market was flooded with people. She eventually got a job at an insurance company making a lot less than what she earned at Lockheed. (15:14-16:15)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. Although she read the company newspaper on a regular basis, she could not recall what kind of articles were in the newspaper. (16:15-21:21)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. MacNeil states that the "war years were something that I just lived through in another life." Her daily routine was filled with work and trying to keep her kids in line. She never seemed to get enough sleep because someone was always waking her up in the middle of the day. Even though her life was hard during the war years, she had a good time at work. Lockheed was "stimulating and exciting. You were doing this vital work, we thought." She recalls that Robert Gross, the owner of Lockheed, tried to develop all sorts of activities in an attempt to make his employees happy. It was difficult listening to war stories and watching her co-workers struggle after they lost a loved one in the war. She talks about her nephews who fought overseas. (21:21-23:40)... Note: there is an intermittent rumbling in the tape. In thinking about the war years, MacNeil remembers the times when her family barely had enough to eat. She recalls the first time she got a telephone. She used the telephone to tell her family about the availability of certain products at the market. The war years were an exciting time. She recalls that "everything we heard on the radio and the movies was all propaganda and pepped you up." End of tape.
- SUBJECT BIO - Kathleen MacNeil came to California to escape her alcoholic husband in 1941, and almost immediately got a job at Lockheed Aircraft. The last of seventh children, MacNeil began working after one year of high school, first as a clerical worker and then in a dress factory in Boston. She then began to waitress, first in Groton, Connecticut and then in Florida, until she married. She remained a full-time homemaker, taking care of her four children, until she went back to work in 1940. Although her defense job paid more than her various pink collar jobs, it was still very difficult to support her and her four children. Feeling that there was not much promise for the future in the aircraft industry, after the layoffs, MacNeil went to work first at an insurance company and then entered clerical work in Civil Service. She held various jobs in city and county agencies until her retirement in 1971. MacNeil contacted the Rosie the Riveter project at her daughter's urging. Three long interviews were conducted with her, seated around the kitchen table in her small, one-bedroom efficiency unit in a senior housing project. The major piece of furniture in the small living room was a spinet piano, with a metronome sitting atop it. Records and books on music all testify to her interest. MacNeil projected vitality and confidence, and was a great performer, frequently gesturing, posing and pantomiming her responses. She was highly articulate, self-directed and expansive in her interviews, requiring little prompting from the interviewer. Although she enjoyed the interview process, she became saddened at times, like when she talked about her deceased brother or her son's death. TOPICS - friendships; dating; running away to New York; parents; reading and literary influences; and father's loyalty to labor unions; Note: there are intermittent interruptions caused by a rumbling noise;dating; relationship with a gangster; sexual activities; unwanted sexual advances; social life; and dancing and dance hall etiquette; Note: there are intermittent interruptions caused by a rumbling noise;move to California; husband and marital relationship; transportation to Lockheed; racial discrimination; application process; first impression of the plant; plant environment; patriotism; views on war and the draftwork force demographics; relationship with women co-workers; transfer to clerical position; friendships; social life; live music during lunch hour; recreational activities organized by Lockheed; and riding club acrecreational activities at Lockheed; parenting problems; family life; managing household; expectations for children; participation in children's school activities; and husband; Note: there are intermittent interrupfamily life; union activities; minorities and "Okies" at Lockheed; clerical work; postwar layoffs; unemployment; reflections on her life during the war years; and patriotism; Note: there are intermittent interru
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