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Butler, Jesse Haver (audio interview #5 of 11)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This interview took place in Jesse Haver Butler's apartment. Also present during the interview was Mimi Symos, a feminist film student who was considering doing a short film on Butler, which might account for some of Butler's performance in this interview as compared some of the previous interviews. 1973-01-22
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- 2020-01-29
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- SUBJECT BIO - Jesse Haver Butler served as a lobbyist for the National Consumers League in Washington, D.C. during which time she came into contact with activists in the National Woman's Party. In 1919-1920, she toured the western states with Carrie Chapman Catt during the ratification drive for the woman's suffrage amendment. Raised on a ranch in Colorado, Butler was determined to attend Smith College. She graduated from there in 1918 and went to work for first for the Massachusetts Minimum Wage and then moved to Washington D.C. to serve as a lobbyist for the National Consumers League. In Washington, she ate lunch regularly at the National Women's Party headquarters, and came into contact with many of the women involved with the picketing of the White House. After she toured the western states with Carrie Chapman Catt during the ratification drive for the woman's suffrage amendment, she married and went with her husband to England. On her return to the US, she began a new career, teaching public speaking to women. A full life history of approximately 12 hours was recorded with Butler, between November 1972 and the spring of 1973, when she was 88 years old, in her apartment in a retirement community in LaVerne, California. She had come to public attention as a result of her participation in the 1970 celebration of women's suffrage. A woman of commanding presence, with a vigorous voice and persona, Butler was highly committed to the goals of the Feminist History Research Project and to the women's liberation movement. In the course of the several years following the interview, she regularly spoke on college campuses and to women's groups and remained very involved working on child care issues with the local chapter of NOW. TOPICS - Topics covered on this side of the tape include: Butler's participation in the ratification drive led by Carrie Chapman Catt; formation of LWV and her appointment as legislative advocate for LWV; life in Washington, D;C;, including the communal household established with her peers; her friendships with members of the National Woman's Party; and her ambivalence about marrying;Topics covered on this side of the tape include: Butler's life and experiences in London, including her involvement in women's groups there, her introduction to the Mothers' Clinics, and her initial training in public speaking;
- *** File: sufjhbutler8.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-2:14)... Tape introduction. (2:14-4:43)... During the ratification drive with Carrie Chapman Catt through the western United States, they were greeted by large crowds upon their arrival at each city, The crowds were very faithful to Catt, who Butler maintains had more influence over women than any other female activist in history. There was a magnetism about her character that attracted women and made them forget that throughout history women have fought each other. They received large contributions because many of the women in the cities were affluent. (4:43-7:01)... When she visited Las Vegas on the ratification tour, she ran into a friend from Washington whose boyfriend agreed that when they married she could continue to work. Butler was excited for this woman because many women at this time were expected to give up their career when they married. Unfortunately, this woman was in Las Vegas to obtain a divorce from the man she married because he disagreed with her wishes to stop working when she gave birth to their child. Their marriage was built on the agreement that she would return to work when the baby reached a certain age, at which time she would hire a baby-sitter. However, she did not want to return to work and her husband requested a divorce. This incident made Butler realize that women would encounter many problems related to their marriage, family, and career. (7:01-9:03)... Another instance that made her believe women were headed for problems occurred when she was leaving San Diego after the ratification drive there. She observed a woman crying and later learned that she was forced to choose between her career and her boyfriend. The boyfriend wanted to attend law school and asked that she quit college and go to work so that she could pay for his education, which was something she did not want to do. According to Butler, women were encountering problems with their personal choices. The observations she made while on the ratification tour made her realize that more study was required of the society where women would be going once they got suffrage. (9:03-13:35)... She originally she did not want to get married. Negative childhood experiences related to her father's marriages and the fact that she was a financially independent woman with a career reinforced this. When she moved to Washington and began lobbying there, she was completely satisfied and engaged in her work. When she met Hugh, her future husband, he also did not want to get married and for 4 years they had a platonic friendship. However, when she was 33 years old she looked around at older, unmarried women who did not seem very happy with their lives. She spent her evenings with Hugh and when he was appointed a position in London she wondered who she would eat dinner with every night. Hugh was a very intelligent man and assisted her with her work in many instances, including giving her the title of the speech she gave during the ratification drive: "The Government and the Market Basket." She had many reservations about marriage, especially sacrificing her career. She knew that marrying and moving to London would end her career, but she wanted to see England and heard that the wives of diplomats did not have to cook or manage their households by themselves. (13:35-16:50)... She returned from the ratification tour with Carrie Chapman Catt in the early part of 1920. Six months after Tennessee ratified the suffrage amendment, Catt held a meeting in St. Louis to disband the National American Woman's Suffrage Association and form the League of Woman Voters. Maud Wood Park was made the president of the League of Women Voters. Butler was invited to sit on a platform at this meeting and because of her lobbying skills, was appointed the legislative advocate for the League of Women Voters. She was paid $3,500 a year, which the highest salary that any woman in Washington was getting at the time, and was double from what she was paid at the National Consumers League. After the meeting in St. Louis, she returned to Washington and began working for the League of Women Voters (LWV). That summer they laid the groundwork for the LWV to work with the congress. However, she was distracted with thoughts of getting married and her pending move to England. She was married on December 6, 1920 and left for London ten days later. (16:50-20:21)... After they were married, she and her husband stayed at a friend's apartment in New York. She recalls leaving the apartment and sitting on a park bench, praying about her marriage. She was consoled by a woman who assuaged her fears of marriage and childbirth by telling her that giving birth was part of a woman's physical makeup and that she would get the courage when it was time to give birth. Thirty years later, Butler met this woman again, at which time she became Butler's spiritual teacher. (20:21-22:09)... Prior to getting married, she did not seriously think about marriage and a family. She did not want to be cooped up in the home and given the sole responsibility of cleaning and cooking. Several years after she moved to England she experienced a miscarriage in her seventh month. She believes she would have died as a result of this miscarriage had it not been for the care of one of Florence Nightingale's trained nurses. Butler later spent six years studying England's child welfare program, which she attributed to Nightingale's efforts. (22:09-26:04)... While living in Washington, she became tired of living in a rooming house and taking her meals at a boarding house. She suggested to Hugh that they rent a large house and fill it with their friends. The men and women who lived with them were well educated and had good jobs in Washington. There was also a married couple who lived with them so that the arrangement would appear "proper." During the summer, they rented another house where their friends would stay on the weekends after canoeing up the Potomac River. They ultimately rented a home where they held dances and roundtable discussions, and hosted musical events. (26:04-29:56)... While living in communal housing, each resident had a shelf in the kitchen and was responsible for their breakfast. The living arrangement was very harmonious and there were no difficulties with the residents. In the evenings, residents would either host individual dinner parties, or all of the residents would eat together. Butler found a job for Helen Hill, her cohort at the Massachusetts Minimum Wage Commission, at the Railroad Administration in Washington. Hill lived with the other residents at the house and agreed to handle all of the household expenses. Each resident was responsible for a certain amount of the rent and utilities, which were managed by Hill. They also hired a household assistant to come in and clean the house once a week, which was split evenly between all of the residents. It is a difficult situation for men and women who live in unfamiliar environments with no social outlets to meet other people and be part of a social community. While in Washington, one of her goals was to organize a woman's club for women working for the government. (29:56-33:52)... Butler recounts the experience of one of her canoeing friends who became involved with an army officer, who Butler thought was married. Her friend ended the relationship when this proved to be true, but three years later after this man's wife died the two were married. They settled in Washington and she had two daughters after she was 40 years old. (33:52-35:50)... She describes another woman she lived with who had a high position with the Interior Department. After meeting a very attractive man, she became engaged but decided to wait a year before she got married. In the interim, her future husband left for Texas to work in the oil industry and was killed in a refinery fire. Many people believed that Butler and Hugh were in love with each other and would eventually become involved romantically. Their friends wanted them to get married and thought it was unfortunate that they did not realize their love for each other. (35:50-40:00)... The women she lived with in the community house were not feminists. She explains that she was the "real" feminist, but does not discuss what her views on women were. In this era, women did not speak about sex privately or publicly. A woman she worked with in Massachusetts, Leslie Cutler, found a hospital for children born blind as a result of venereal disease. She went to the state legislature and asked that people be tested for venereal disease before they were married. Although her friend's love affair with the army officer was a secret, most of their friends would not have thought of the affair as scandalous, but instead would have been surprised by her lack of focus on her career. Many of Butler's friends believed they were above the pettiness of marriage and romantic relationships. Nevertheless, Hazel Hunkins' (former activist in the National Woman's Party) attitudes about sex, marriage, and family were unusual. Butler disapproved of her beliefs and Hunkins could not convince Butler otherwise. [NOTE: Butler, in fact, is not correctly identifying Hunkins and is probably referring to another, young suffragist, not to Hazel Hunkins.] (40:00-41:15)... She was dedicated to helping women in both the United States and England. As a child growing up in the pioneer days, she experienced a lot of tragedies. As a result, she became interested in helping women have a better chance in life. (41:15-45:17)... At Smith College, students were expected to regurgitate what they read and studied; however, she did not agree with this type of classical thinking. She chose to analyze and interpret the material she studied and as a result, she did not receive high marks. When she moved to England, she discovered that being a wife was very different than being a lobbyist at the capital. Unlike her career, marriage and childbirth was an emotional pursuit rather than an intellectual one; she was not prepared for this. After she miscarried her first child, she was very depressed and cried for two weeks. One day she met a woman who told her that she worked as a missionary in China and that many children there, especially girls, were abandoned by their mothers because daughters were not valued in that country. When she and her husband encountered one of these baby girls, they adopted her. This girl studied medicine and eventually became a doctor so that she could return to China and help the women there. end of tape *** File: sufjhbutler9.mp3 (0:00-1:42)... The talk with this missionary convinced her that she needed to be even more dedicated to helping women. After she miscarried her first child, they paid the nurse two pounds. The nurse convinced Butler that she would have children again and requested that she be invited to see her next child when it was born. When Butler had her daughter, the nurse came to see her and this was her reward for saving Butler's life the night she miscarried her first child. (1:42-3:22)... After a few years in England, she became afflicted with rheumatism. A friend suggested that she visit Baden Baden and sit in a sulfur bath. She also visited a German physician who provided her with a plan for the span of her life. This is what she wanted while living in America, but was never able to find . This doctor told her that she must take one day off a week from her husband and children. (3:22-7:59)... When her children were born she decided to breast feed them; her daughter for nine months and her son for six months. In England, there were several breast feeding clinics set up as a result of Queen Mary's efforts to educate mothers. Queen Mary requested the services of a New Zealander, Truby King (?), who invented a new breast feeding system. When a woman gave birth to a child, she was trained for approximately a month or until she learned how to breast feed her child. Butler is fascinated by the childcare system in England. In every village there is a free clinic for mothers where they can receive training on how to give birth and how to breast feed. Some of the clinics also taught birth control methods. The clinics advised women that when they were married they should wait for two years to have children because during that period they need to adjust to married life and establish their homes. (7:59-11:14)... While living in England, she attended a Mother's Clinic located in a large hall. There were several mothers present from various socioeconomic backgrounds who were being trained on breast feeding techniques. When it was time, a mother was called up to a platform with her baby, at which time a doctor would instruct her on how to breast feed her child. The other women could hear what the woman's breast feeding difficulties were and what kinds of solutions the doctor offered. Unlike the United States, this information was public and free to mothers. She believes that England's efforts at educating mothers resulted in that country having the lowest infant death rate in the world. (11:14-16:32)... On her day off from her family, she spent time learning how to breast feed. She also traveled to several English villages and visited the Mothers Clinics where mothers received weekly lectures on family life and child care. She continued her work with the American Woman's Club, which she also visited on her day off. Mrs. Curtis Brown of Curtis Brown Publishing purchased a new location for the club and Butler started a current events club. Many of the members in the club were foreigners and could not speak English very well. Butler suggested that these women bring in newspaper clippings of the events taking place in their country of origin. There were approximately 30-40 women who attended the club. (16:32-18:29)... As a member of the American Woman's Club, she attended luncheons, during which she would talk to other American women about their lives in England. All of these women had governesses to care for their children. The club sponsored debates, one of which dealt with the question of whether American or English men made better husbands. Another debate discussed the existence of Puritanism in England and America. According to Butler, a puritanical element exists in America within the parent-child relationship in that people still believe that the sole responsibility of a child belongs to the mother. The club also had a debate on birth control. (18:29-20:58)... Because of her contact with American women at the American Woman's Club and the current events group, some of the American men in London went to her husband and thanked him for bringing her to England because she was able to get their wives interested in the country. Many of these women had a difficult time adjusting to England. Like many American women, the first year she was in England Butler was very depressed because she missed her career. The American Woman's Club was beneficial to women because it provided an outlet to discuss their problems. (20:58-23:52)... For the first year she was in England she was depressed. Their first accommodation was a cold and dreary flat. The weather and climate was very different than in America and their health suffered as a result. She attended a Christian Science Church while in London and became acquainted with Lady Astor, the first woman in the House of Commons. Butler and her husband attended several gatherings hosted by Lady Astor because of her husband's connection to the American Embassy. (23:52-27:25)... When they attended the Christian Science Church, they became acquainted with an Englishman who worked in the rubber business. He was very excited to meet Butler and her husband when he determined they were Americans. They became friends with this gentleman and socialized with him on numerous occasions. (27:25-30:19)... Approximately 2-3 months after moving to England they were invited to live with their English friend who was having financial difficulties because his rubber business collapsed. They lived in an upstairs bedroom with an adjoining room for her husband. While living in the house they were required to follow certain rules and regulations, such as waking at a certain time for breakfast, leaving 1 pound for maid service, and dressing for dinner each night. Their rent was very low and they lived there for four months. While living at the house, she was taught how to run an English home by a woman who lived in the house. (30:19-31:59)... Her experience at this home was very fulfilling because she learned a lot about how to manage an English home and how to shop. On the weekends, she and her husband went on bicycle trips throughout southern England. In the evenings, their host would tell them about English customs and the history . (31:59-35:04)... In the fall, they moved to the Hampton Gardens suburb, which was around the same time she experienced her miscarriage. She then began attending the American Woman's Club and started the current events group. She was very curious as to the speaking abilities of English people. She met a woman at the American Woman's Club who told her about Madame d'Esterre, an Irish woman who, for 30 years, taught men and women how to speak. She taught several men in the House of Commons, as well as their wives, who were permitted to speak on the same platform as their husbands. She thought this was fascinating since American men disapproved of their wives engaging in public activities. Butler visited Madame d'Esterre and was shocked by this woman's living conditions and personal appearance: she had a hair lip and was short with straggly gray hair and wore a long, black robe similar to the orators in ancient Rome. Despite her reaction to Madame d'Esterre's appearance , Butler wanted to attend her speech classes. (35:04-38:52)... She invited Madame d'Esterre to teach at the American Woman's Club, not telling the women about her appearance. Twenty-five women signed up for the class, which consisted of 10 lessons. By the second class only 15 women attended. Although Madame d'Esterre was an excellent teacher, she was very scathing with her criticism and many women could not handle it. At the conclusion of the course, only nine women were still enrolled. Although Madame d'Esterre told Butler that her accent was the worst out of all the American accents (especially in comparison to the accent of a woman from South Carolina), she enjoyed Butler's speeches because she spoke about very interesting topics that engaged people's interest. (38:52-40:53)... After learning from Madame D, she did not receive anymore training in public speaking while living in England. She often volunteered as a speaker for the Women's Cooperative Movement, which was a nonprofit organization that trained British women how to purchase goods. She was invited to their annual meeting to speak in front of 3,000 women, most of whom were curious about an American woman's appearance. She was not given a topic to speak on and chose to discuss American history and pioneer life. (40:53-42:30)... Over time, she began taking more time away from her family than just once a week. She hired a governess and a cook to care for her children and her household. She also visited a psychotherapist for personal guidance so that she could be a "good wife and mother." She maintained her activities outside the home while continuing to be a good wife and mother. She believes that there is no reason why a woman should sacrifice her career for marriage and a family. If a woman is skilled and intelligent she is capable of combining her work with a husband and children. end of tape
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