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McLeod, Glad (audio interview #1 of 3)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the first of three rather lengthy interviews with Glad McLeod, conducted in the living room of the apartment that she shares with her husband. Suffering from severe emphysema, she receives a steady supply of oxygen from a tank located in a back room. In fact, during the interview, we were interrupted by the delivery of the oxygen tanks. Her emphysema affected McLeod's speech delivery, resulting in abrupt, interrupted phrases. Despite her condition, she was likely and interested and very openly shared her experiences. This first interview, in particular, was rich in details, although at times the chronology of events was a bit confusing. 2/25/1980
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- SUBJECT BIO - Glad McLeod was a student at UCLA, preparing for a career in teaching, before she went to work at Lockheed in 1942. The youngest of three children, she was born and raised in Hollidaysburg, Pennsylvania until the family moved to Los Angeles in 1936. After graduating from Hollywood High School in 1937, she worked first as a domestic, and then as a clerical worker after her son was born in 1940. She married his father in 1942 and remained married to him for seven years. Her second marriage was also short-lived (five years), but at the time of interview, she was still married to her third husband. Although McLeod applied for a job shortly after Pearl Harbor, the "manpower" problem was not yet severe enough for the aircraft companies to be hiring women with no previous experience. Instead, she was referred to a training program. Excelling in this program, she entered Lockheed as a riveter and quickly moved up to becoming a training instructor, and eventually an inspector. In 1943, she was sent to an Engineering Management Training Program and went to work in the Planning Department. Despite her obvious interest and competence, she had no intention of changing her career plans, and returned to UCLA in 1946. After receiving her BA and Teaching Credential in 1948, she taught and served as a counselor for the next twenty-seven years, occasionally using her the skills she gained during the war to teach shop. McLeod was forced to retire in 1975 as a result of health problem. At the time of the interview, she required a steady flow of oxygen and her life and activities were clearly constrained by her condition. TOPICS - family background and history; parents' premarital sex and out-of-wedlock pregnancy; siblings; father's work with the Pennsylvania Railroad; rural migration; housing and living arrangements; childhood; play activitsocioeconomic status; household management; schooling; teachers; clothing; effect of Depression on her family; housing and living arrangements; rural migration; college and career expectations; girlfriends; crushesreligion; literary influences; gender roles; attitude towards domesticity and marriage; family relationships; father's political beliefs; siblings; menstruation; impact of sexual relations with family friend; fatheTopics on this side include: college; dating; sex; social life and activities; pregnancy and childbirth; fleeing to Texas with boyfriend; questions of paternity; attempt to get an abortion; contemplating suicide; returning to Pennsylvania to give birth; l
- *** File: rrrgmcleod1.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:01-2:33)... Note: There is background noise throughout this interview that resembles the sound of a tape being fast forwarded. McLeod's maternal grandparents were of German descent. Her great-grandfather was a sea captain who sailed back and forth between Germany and Baltimore, Maryland. He was frequently accompanied by her great-grandmother who gave birth to two children during these voyages. Both of her grandparents, however, were born in Maryland. Although he didn't learn it until he was an adult, her father was adopted when he was six months old by a Scot-Irish family. The rest of the children in his family were not put up for adoption, and after meeting one of his brothers on the street, he re-established contact with his blood relatives. (2:33-5:05)... Both sides of McLeod's family eventually settled in small, Pennsylvania towns. Her maternal grandfather supported his family by working as a town constable. When he died, her aunt and mother began waitressing at a hotel restaurant to help support their mother. After her mother married, McLeod's grandmother went to work. McLeod's paternal grandfather worked as a cabinetmaker out of his home. (5:05-6:40)... McLeod's mother finished twelve grades in school, quitting after her father died in order to get a job to help support her family. McLeod's father quit school in the eighth or ninth grade and went to work because he wanted to be independent. He initially did odd jobs, then when he was sixteen, he got a job with the Pennsylvania Railroad. (6:40-9:43)... McLeod doesn't know how her parents met, but notes that her mother was too straight-laced to have met her father at a dance. Her mother was twenty and her father was twenty-one when they married, at which time her mother quit her waitress job. Their first child was born less than nine months later. McLeod was quite shocked when she discovered that her parents tried to change the year on their marriage certificate. Even though she was a young girl, she knew enough to know that her parents had sex before marriage. She realized then that her mother was not as straight-laced as she seemed - "like most women did in those days." (9:43-14:24)... Born in 1919, McLeod is the youngest of three children. Her sister was born in 1910, and a brother in 1912. Her sister married at sixteen and had ten children. Her brother died of pneumonia when he was fifty-six years old. When McLeod was born, her father was working on the wreck crew for the Pennsylvania Railroad. He worked twelve hours a day, seven days a week, but was a company man and did not belong to the union. (14:24-16:07)... For the first four years of her life, she lived in the two-story, four-bedroom, red brick home that her parents built after they married. Her maternal grandmother lived with them for many years and always had her own bedroom. Prior to sharing a room with her younger sister, Peg, McLeod believes she slept in her parent's room. (16:07-17:39)... Although she does not recall much about her childhood years before the age of give, McLeod remembers her sister reading comics to her. When her aunt died, their cousin came to live with them. She was the same age as McLeod's brother and they teamed up. McLeod was somewhat left out of her siblings' activities because of their age difference. (17:39-19:51)... When she was four years old, McLeod's family moved to a larger home in the countryside. All the other family members had their own room, but she had to alternate sleeping with her siblings. She spent most of her time playing in her mother's sun room while her mother sewed. (19:51-21:38)... McLeod does not recall playing any childhood games and activities. She was not permitted to do anything physical because of her health; she had croup and asthma when she was a child, which she believes were psychogenic. She doesn't recall much laughter in her home and she never felt a sense of belonging. Because of her health problems, she made up her mind that she was going to be a much stronger person as an adult. (21:38-22:58)... Family activities included Sunday drives and picnics. During McLeod's father's vacations, they drove to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and stayed with friends. Her cousin also came to their home for visits on a regular basis. (22:58-24:09)... Her mother was overly protective after they moved to the country. As a result, McLeod cannot recall playing with very many children in their neighborhood, even though the nearest ones lived only 200-300 feet away. She believes that when her family lived in town, her older siblings played outside in the street and were more active with their friends. (24:09-28:06)... McLeod describes her first year of school as "sheer trauma." She had a difficult time leaving her mother every day because they were so close and she was afraid of the students and the teachers. Her mother taught her how to read, write, and do arithmetic before she started school, so she was far ahead of the other students. Her mother allowed her to stay home from school once a week; but she usually went to school less than four days a week. When she stayed home, her mother gave her educational lessons and McLeod spent a large portion of her time reading. Before she started the second grade, the family moved and rented a house in the country, where she attended school. When the house they were building in town was finished, she transferred to the town school. (28:06-28:40)... Growing up, McLeod thought the family was poor. She realizes that this was probably not the case since they always lived in a nice home. End of tape. *** File: rrrgmcleod2.mp3 (0:00-1:14)... McLeod always felt that her family was poor when she was growing up; her mother talked about their lack of money. In addition to providing for his own family, her father was responsible for supporting both of her grandmothers and her sixteen-year-old cousin Dottie. Her maternal grandmother went to work cleaning rooms at the YMCA to contribute to the family income. (1:14-2:12)... None of the children were required to do any household chores while they were growing up. Her mother felt that it was her responsibility as a mother and a wife to manage the home. Before McLeod started school, however, she helped her mother bake. (2:12-7:00)... McLeod enjoyed learning, but had a difficult time socially. She always felt uncomfortable around other children because she was afraid that she wouldn't "measure up." When she was in the fifth grade, the family moved to Harrisburg because her father was transferred. She started the school year late and fell behind in arithmetic. Her teacher was very patient and made an impression on her. From that point on, she began enjoying school more. Her father was transferred again when she was in the sixth grade, and the family moved to Newcastle. Her sixth-grade teacher also made an impression on her. (7:00-8:46)... McLeod refers to the sixth grade as her "liberation year" because of they way she changed her clothing once she left the house; the improvement in her health; and the fact that she began to make friends at school. (8:46-12:23)... During the Depression, finances were tight for her family, and in 1930, her brother left college and moved back home to help support the family. Her parents could never afford to send him back to school. Besides her grandmother, her sister and brother-in-law and their children moved into their home when she was in the seventh or eighth grade. By then, her brother had moved to California and his room was vacant. Her mother always complained about having very little money and McLeod wondered if this was the reason why her wardrobe was so sparse. However, her mother made all of her clothing and probably did not think that making McLeod a variety of outfits was a priority. (12:23-13:24)... When she was young, McLeod told her family that she wanted to be a teacher. She expected to go to college in order to pursue this career. As she grew older, however, she started to worry about how her family would finance her education. She figured that she would attend an inexpensive Normal School located just outside Newcastle. (13:24-19:05)... Note: There is an interruption in this segment when McLeod answers the doorbell. McLeod and her girlfriends organized a social club when they were in sixth grade, which was exclusively for girls. She notes that she and her girlfriends were only brave enough to admire boys from afar. She had crushes on boys and in sixth grade fantasized about marrying a boy named Jimmy Campbell. Her father forbade his youngest daughters from dating until they were eighteen because he did not want them getting married in their middle teens, like their oldest sister. Most of her girlfriends, regardless of their social status, wanted to be school teachers. (19:05-23:25)... McLeod and a friend in junior high school both decided that they wanted to be "old maid school teachers." Married women were not allowed to teach because "women who had carnal knowledge were not fit to be around children." Even though she had crushes on boys, she also saw herself teaching for the rest of her life and, therefore, resigned herself to never marrying. (23:25-29:10)... Note; There is an interruption during the interview when McLeod speaks to a guest in her home. Beginning in the sixth grade, McLeod engaged in more physical activities, becoming a tomboy instead of a sickly, little girl. She did not want her mother's life, which she felt was marked by boredom and drudgery. She was attracted to a more masculine lifestyle, which included playing sports, going to college, and earning her own money. She saw teaching as a way of becoming independent. The closer she came to womanhood, the more restrictive it seemed. She believed her parents when they told her that if she prayed and believed her prayers would be answered, she would get whatever she wanted. So, when she was eleven or twelve, she prayed to become a boy. End of tape. *** File: rrrgmcleod3.mp3 (0:00-1:05)... Note: the audio quality in this segment is poor. Both McLeod and her close girlfriend thought that there was more to life than "marriage and kids.... and baking pie on Saturdays." (1:05-3:27)... Note: The audio quality in this segment is poor. McLeod discusses the reading materials she enjoyed when she was a young girl. (3:27-4:56)... Note: The audio quality in this interview is fair. Although her parents were Lutheran and advocated a religious education for their children, they rarely went to church. When her family lived in Harrisburg, she and her siblings attended Sunday school at a Presbyterian Church, but did not go to church services on a regular basis. (4:56-7:32)... Note: The audio quality in this interview is fair. McLeod's father was more lenient than her mother. As an assistant foreman for the railroad, he came in contact with quite a few Italians and enjoyed their celebratory way of life. He went out drinking with his friends on a regular basis, which McLeod's mother did not appreciate. She notes that there was tension between her parents. When she was a teenager, she blamed her mother, but as she grew older she realized that the tension was a result of her father's behavior. (7:32-8:31)... Note: The audio quality is fair. McLeod's parents rarely talked about political matters at the dinner table although her father occasionally expressed his Republican partisanship and thought that Roosevelt was going to ruin the nation. He was also prejudiced and cautioned McLeod about associating with a Black child at school. (8:31-9:05)... Note: The audio quality is fair. There is an interruption in this segment when McLeod requests a break. McLeod felt so different from her siblings that she thought she was adopted. She was closer to her brother than her sisters because her brother's interests were more akin to her own. (9:05-10:49)... Note: The audio quality of this interview is fair. McLeod believes that her mother made most of the household and family decisions. If there was a decision that she did not want to make, she sent the children to ask their father. Her parents did not have any disputes over how to raise their children. She recalls that her younger sister was the only who openly defied and rebelled against their parents. (10:49-15:14)... When McLeod was in sixth grade, a neighbor woman provided her with a very general education about menstruation. After this, she could hardly wait to start her period because it represented a turning point in her path towards independence. When she began menstruating, her mother provided her with two boxes of Kotex. After these ran out, she switched to rags because Kotex was a luxury item that her parents could not afford. By the time she was fifteen, she was wearing tampons. When she first saw tampon advertisements she had no concept of female anatomy and how the product was supposed to work. (15:14-20:29)... When McLeod was fourteen years old, she began a relationship with her brother's friend, Clarence, who was twelve years older than her. He was very handsome and seduced her in a romantic manner that made it easier for her to acquiesce. After her father died, when she was fifteen, she had sexual intercourse with Clarence for the first time. She believed she was in love with him and did not date because she was still very shy around boys. However, he continued to date other women while carrying on a sexual relationship with her. Similar to a victim of incest, she felt guilty and ashamed about their relationship and blamed herself for allowing him to seduce her. Although she assumed that they would eventually marry, she continued to pursue a teaching career. (20:29-21:52)... McLeod's father died when she was sixteen. He was only fifty-four when he had a stroke. His death came suddenly and was a very traumatic experience for her family. At the time of his death, McLeod and her sisters were living at home in Newcastle. (21:52-25:14)... Following her father's death around 1934, McLeod's mother decided to move to California in search of better job opportunities. McLeod's brother was already working there as a bartender. Her mother knew that the money from the life insurance policy would not last long and that she would have to work to support her family. It was difficult for McLeod to leave her friends and move to California. McLeod started the tenth grade at Hollywood High School and remembered that it was quite a culture shock. The girls her age looked very different than her, and she experienced curriculum changes. (25:14-26:13)... A young man, Clarence, drove her family out to California and moved in with them in Hollywood. McLeod finds it unbelievable that her mother never suspected that she was having a relationship with Clarence considering that they were living under the same roof. Because of his constant presence in her life, she was never able to relate to boys her own age. (26:13-28:55)... McLeod made a few friends at Hollywood High School. Once she was in California, she understood that she could have a teaching career even if she was married. She planned on going to college after high school. When her teacher informed McLeod that she could graduate early, she jumped at the chance. But with no college money in sight, she began doing housework. She applied at both Douglas and Lockheed, but was turned away because she was under the age of eighteen. When she learned that tuition at UCLA was inexpensive, she applied and enrolled in courses for the fall semester. (28:55-30:36)... All through high school and afterwards, McLeod continued to carry on a relationship with Clarence. This period was very difficult for her, especially when he began dating her sewing teacher and one of her older classmates. When she complained about it, he told her to quit school and marry him. She recalls having a "moment of sanity" when she decided that she would never sacrifice her education for him. End of tape. *** File: rrrgmcleod4.mp3 (0:00-2:57)... McLeod gradated from Hollywood High School in January 1937 and began attending UCLA the following September. Following a conversation with a woman counselor there, she decided to pursue a four-year program with a major in education and minors in French and English. Although she was not thrilled with the prospect of teaching elementary school, the high-school teaching program was a five-year program and she did not have the patience to attend school that long. During her second semester at UCLA, she switched her major to psychology. She loved the campus at UCLA, but did not make any friends while in college because of her busy schedule. Her entire day was consumed with school and work responsibilities. (2:57-6:01)... McLeod was relieved that he was out of her life when he moved to Florida. Approximately twenty years old and a sophomore in college, she began socializing with her younger sister, who was still in high school. Most of their activities were in a group setting. After returning to UCLA for her junior year, McLeod found out that she was pregnant . She notes that many young women became pregnant because they didn't use contraception; to do so was to admit that they might engage in sexual intercourse. She never enjoyed sexual intercourse with Clarence. However, once she began dating her son's father, she was pleasantly surprised and thought "My God! Is this what it is supposed to be like?" (6:01-10:33)... When McLeod found out she was pregnant, she and her boyfriend took her mother's car and drove to Texas to get married and start a life together. Jobs were scarce and it became clear to her that her boyfriend was not prepared to get married. Destitute, McLeod contacted her family and they sent her enough money to get back to California. Much to her surprise, her mother's reaction was very calm and understanding, perhaps because she herself had become pregnant with her first child before she was married. Her boyfriend's family refused to take any responsibility for the family, arguing that he was too young to get married and that he was most likely not the father of her child. (10:33-12:12)... Seeking an abortion, McLeod was referred to a physician in downtown Los Angeles. When she told him her age, he refused to perform the operation without parental consent. He did examine her, however, and determined that she was four months pregnant and too far along to have an abortion. At that time, she decided to keep the baby. (12:12-14:34)... Realizing that there was not much she could do with only two years of college, McLeod planned on returning to school after she had her baby. She attempted to commit suicide at one point, but talked herself out of it because she felt there had to be a better way to solve her problems. After her boyfriend's family denied responsibility for her pregnancy, they sent him away and she had no further contact with him. (14:34-18:52)... To reduce medical expenses, McLeod moved back to Pennsylvania and gave birth to her son (Jeff) in her sister's home. Even though she pretended that she was married, most people in the community were not convinced. Two months after her son's birth, she returned to California. She continued to pretend that she was married by taking her ex-boyfriend's last name. She eventually went back to her family name. On her return to California, McLeod and her younger sister rented an apartment. Their mother was employed as a live-in nanny for an actress and her wages paid the rent on McLeod's apartment. McLeod went to work as a housekeeper and a cook for a family. A divorced mother who rented a room in her apartment baby-sat McLeod's son for $10/month. (18:52-22:03)... McLeod's son was delivered by a medical doctor in April 1940, and a practical nurse took care of him for the first ten days for a fee of $10. She had a natural childbirth, which was not an enjoyable experience. She was totally unprepared for pregnancy and childbirth. The first time her baby moved in the womb she thought there was something wrong until her mother reassured her that it was a natural progression of pregnancy. (22:03-23:38)... Even though single motherhood was not an ideal situation, McLeod was committed to finishing school and pursuing a teaching career because she had a son to support and housecleaning was not going to cut it. She anticipated that juggling college and a son would be difficult, but she felt confident she would get through her final two years of school with her mother's assistance. (23:38-26:22)... Between working full-time, school and parenting, McLeod slept only four hours each night. The only time she spent with her son was in the morning and on the weekends. During the week, her roommate took care of her son. Although McLeod was too busy to have an active social life, she began dating a friend of her brother's, spending time with him in the evenings studying. She describes this period as the "hardest and most physically draining years of my life." (26:22-30:17)... When her son turned a year old, McLeod decided that it would be best if he went back East to stay with her sister for awhile. During his absence, she continued to go to school and work various jobs. He returned in November 1941 and the following month, during school Christmas break, she got a job at Toy Manufacturing. She decided to quit school at that time because of the war and applied at Lockheed. They recommended that she take a sheet metal course at Frank Wiggins (Trade Tech). When she finished the course in June, she was hired at Lockheed. She comments that working with sheet metal at Lockheed was a "whole new world.... I just loved it and it was so much fun." End of tape.
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