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Butler, Jesse Haver (audio interview #8 of 11)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This interview was intended as the final interview to clear up some questions and details that were overlooked and required elaboration. However, when a discussion began regarding the reasons why Butler changed her mind about getting married, she asked that the tape recorder be turned off and went into great detail about the personal angst she experienced as a result of her decision to marry. 1973-03-15
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- 2020-01-29
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- *** File: sufjhbutler14.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-2:11)... Tape introduction (2:11-5:09)... There was very little response from her regarding questions on feminism and her feminist beliefs. She initiates the interview on this topic with a discussion of her life in Boston, Massachusetts, stating that everything changed when she moved there. At the time she was only 25 years old and was worried because she was not meeting any men in the city. She recounts being invited to dinner by Larue Brown, the Assistant Attorney General to the United States. Even though she had made up her mind that she would not marry, she concealed her suffrage beliefs for fear this would compromise her ability to find a mate. While in Boston, she did attend lectures held by Emmeline Pankhurst, but she did not engage in any suffrage activities and did not consider herself a "red hot" suffragist until she moved to Washington, DC. Unlike Washington, the suffrage movement was not a popular topic in Boston and any woman who wanted to marry did not express her passion for the movement. (5:09-8:38)... Although she had a rule that she did not date anyone she worked with, she made an exception for Larue Brown when he invited her to dinner because he was instrumental in opposing her termination with the Minimum Wage Commission. He invited her to dinner again the next evening and asked for her hand in marriage. She was very surprised by this and knew immediately that she would not marry him. He had a very untidy appearance and reeked of cigarette smoke. She declined his offer of marriage and told him that she could never marry anyone with whom she was not acquainted. She suggested that instead he marry a friend of hers from New York whose beauty and social background made her an excellent suitor. They met and immediately became engaged and when Butler returned from her vacation in Colorado, they treated her to dinner to celebrate their good news. She chided herself for not marrying him, but knew that she had nothing in common with him and was not sexually attracted to him. Ultimately, she realized that her decision was a good one. (8:38-11:16)... While she was working with the Minimum Wage Commission, she did not engage in any suffrage activities. However, she did attend all of the meetings held by suffragists in Boston. She did not become active in the suffrage movement until she moved to Washington, DC. At the time, she did not call herself a feminist, nor did she advertise the fact that she was a suffragist because she wanted to "get along" with men. After she moved to Washington, DC and her career took off, she decided she did not want to ever get married. Her career, involvement with the suffrage movement, and social activities satisfied her need for companionship. (11:16-13:17)... At the time, women did not use the term "feminist", but referred to themselves as suffragists. In terms of broader issues outside of suffrage, she describes her activities with the meatpacking industry and her involvement with the Minimum Wage Commission. In both instances, women were being exploited as consumers and as a laborers. She digresses and talks about her poor family life, which was a result of the pioneer age. When she moved to England, she sought the services of a psychotherapist whom she saw three times a week for four years to assist with her personal problems. (13:17-16:29)... While living in Washington she publicly identified herself as a suffragist and went to all of Carrie Chapman Catt's suffrage meetings. Butler's suffrage activities were limited, however, because she was busy with her career. She did not meet Mrs. Catt until she walked into Catt's office and requested her desires to with her on the ratification tour through the western United States. Mrs. Catt was familiar with her work with the Minimum Wage Commission and the meatpacking industry. Communications with her mother did not include any discussion about her mother's early suffrage activities. In fact, the only adult conversation she had with her mother was on the evening of her death when she told Butler she was a smart girl and to pursue an education. As a child she was a victim of molestation, but she is hesitant to discuss these events on tape. When she was eight years old, she ran away from her home because she could not "take it anymore." As a result of an accident, however, she forgot certain incidences of her childhood until she underwent psychological treatment in London. (16:29-20:00)... Her childhood sexual experiences affected her attitudes towards the opposite sex. In addition, she was jealous of her brother because he became the center of attention when he was born and Butler was required to take care of him. She believes that it is part of the German heritage to spoil the male children in the family. She recalls her mother cutting her hair because she did not want to take care of it. Butler believes this was her mother's attempt at making her look more like a boy. When her mother died her brother and younger sister became her sole responsibility. Although she grew up hating men, she knew that a woman had to have a man if she wanted anything in life, which is why women are in competition with each other. When she decided to go to college, she wanted to be in an environment without men because she did not know how to get along with them. (20:00-22:18)... When she moved to Boston she began thinking about marriage, but was not in an environment to meet men. At the time she was living in a rooming house and was very lonely, which made marriage seem more attractive. When she was 24 years old, she had a relationship with a Portuguese man, who told her that on the week-ends he had go home and protect his mother because his father was a drunk and often beat her. She dreamt that his mother found a woman for him to marry. After telling him about this dream, she never saw him again. (22:18-25:05)... In college, a classmate introduced her to Horace Lyon, a very wealthy boy from the Lyon Tooth Powder family. He courted her, but she was emotionally undeveloped and did not know how to carry on a relationship. Although he wanted to marry her, she was extremely bored with his conversation and lack of humor. When she took him to visit her family in Colorado, she was reprimanded for treating him so poorly. She knew that he was very wealthy and this opportunity would probably not come again, but she could not be with someone who was uninteresting. (25:05-25:40)... There was not a suffrage club at Smith College when she was enrolled. She notes that Smith College is a very reactionary institution towards the feminist movement. In addition, the college had very poor speech courses. The college often contacts her asking for contributions. In response, she would like to express her disappointment with their program. Even though the college continues to be reactionary, it still graduates women like Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinhem. (25:40-26:53)... After her career developed in Washington, DC, she realized she did not want to marry. When she met Hugh he also did not want to marry and they shared a great companionship. She always paid for her own meals when she ate with Hugh. This was a common occurrence at the time, especially when each person had thriving careers. Deciding who would pay for dinner was never an issue. It was always a natural instinct for her to pay for her own meals. (26:53-30:52)... She recounts a sermon given by her religious teacher on self genesis. Butler confronted her after the sermon because she used "man" instead of "mankind." She explained that this meant that the lecture did not include her because she was a woman. Her teacher accused her of disliking men. One of Butler's personal and religious beliefs is that she lived and worked as a man in previous lives, which explains her love for government, as well as her ability to cooperate with men throughout her adult life. Her religious teacher also described her as an androgynous being similar to Jesus. (30:52-33:24)... <there is a brief interruption in tape > Butler attended a lecture given by a feminist, entitled "How Do You Know an Educated Man." Butler objected to the title, telling the speaker that it should be,instead, "How Do You Know an Educated Person." When she attended a board meeting for her local women's club, she told this story to illustrate how women can be feminists without being disagreeable. Her comments were not particularly welcomed, let alone accepted. (33:24-37:10)... When she was child, she recalled the day her mother climbed in a wagon to travel around the area for woman's suffrage. Instead of taking Butler along, her mother made her stay home and wash diapers and do house work. At 6-7 years old, she began to wonder where babies came from. Her mother told her that storks brought babies, but she knew that this was not so. Her intellect was developing at this time and when she reached adolescence, conversations with her teachers and friends about her family life and other subjects helped develop her consciousness of these issues. (37:10-38:54)... As a girl, her family tried to minimize her aggressiveness. Her father told her that she must learn how to handle men or she would never get married. In high school, she took a domestic science class, which she enjoyed. Her parents made her learn how to cook and her mother often sent her into Pueblo to do the shopping for the family. As a girl, she was not pressured to be a "girl," but to be adorable so that her family could live with her. (38:54-39:57)... When she moved to Washington, DC and developed her career, her emotional and intellectual states matured. She was very satisfied with her career and professional status. She recalls visiting a friend who was stuck at home with three children. It dawned on Butler that she did not want to wind up in a similar situation. (39:57-44:25)... It was devastating for her to leave her career when she decided to get married and move to England. [Note: narrator was reluctant to talk about the evolution of this decision.] She and Hugh were extremely close companions for four years and he introduced her to the Christian Science religion. However, he was also very close with his family and dominated by his mother. While she was touring with Carrie Chapman Catt, Hugh went home for the Christmas holiday and convinced his father to retire and move into their communal home in Washington, DC. When Butler returned she was shocked by Hugh's decision because he did not consult with her even though they had agreed that no one would be allowed to live in the house without mutual consent of the residents. Hugh's mother was very domineering and immediately took control of the house. The other residents disliked her. She and Hugh stopped eating dinner together because he was required to spend time with his parents. Whenever he went for a walk with Butler, his mother watched them. Butler was very disappointed with herself for getting emotionally involved with a man, which was something she did not want at that point in her life. end of tape
- SUBJECT BIO - Jesse Haver Butler served as a lobbyist for the National Consumers League in Washington, D.C. during which time she came into contact with activists in the National Woman's Party. In 1919-1920, she toured the western states with Carrie Chapman Catt during the ratification drive for the woman's suffrage amendment. Raised on a ranch in Colorado, Butler was determined to attend Smith College. She graduated from there in 1918 and went to work for first for the Massachusetts Minimum Wage and then moved to Washington D.C. to serve as a lobbyist for the National Consumers League. In Washington, she ate lunch regularly at the National Women's Party headquarters, and came into contact with many of the women involved with the picketing of the White House. After she toured the western states with Carrie Chapman Catt during the ratification drive for the woman's suffrage amendment, she married and went with her husband to England. On her return to the US, she began a new career, teaching public speaking to women. A full life history of approximately 12 hours was recorded with Butler, between November 1972 and the spring of 1973, when she was 88 years old, in her apartment in a retirement community in LaVerne, California. She had come to public attention as a result of her participation in the 1970 celebration of women's suffrage. A woman of commanding presence, with a vigorous voice and persona, Butler was highly committed to the goals of the Feminist History Research Project and to the women's liberation movement. In the course of the several years following the interview, she regularly spoke on college campuses and to women's groups and remained very involved working on child care issues with the local chapter of NOW. TOPICS - Topics covered on this side of the tape include: attitudes about marriage; social life in Boston; early family life; and gender ideology;
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