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Chamberlain, Katherine Tolls (audio interview #1 of 1)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the only interview conducted with Katherine Tolls Chamberlain, and was recorded in her home in Pasadena. She was, at best, a reluctant narrator. 10/26/1972
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- 2020-01-29
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- *** File: sufktchamberlain1.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-3:16)... No introduction. Tape begins abruptly with a discussion of Chamberlain's mother's (Charlotte Perkins Gilman) use of her family name rather than her husband's; noting that her mother preferred her married name, particularly when she was published. When Chamberlain was 27, she participated in the 1912 suffrage parade in New York, in which both men and women marched. There were several different sections marching in the parade, each of which had its own banner identifying their affiliation. This parade made an impression on the public and was an eye-opening experience for people who were not aware that women were moving into many types of professions and taking a public stance. (3:16-6:35)... Nora Blatch, Harriet Stanton Blatch's daughter, asked Chamberlain to design suffrage banners for the 1912 parade. During the parade, she marched in the section designated for artists, while her mother and stepmother (Grace Channing) paraded in the section designated for writers. Although she met many influential people through her mother, Chamberlain does not describe herself as an "active worker" in the suffrage movement. However, she recalls attending several meetings at Cooper Union where her mother, stepfather, George Gilman, and Harriet Stanton Blatch , among others, spoke. Throughout her life, she lived in several different areas, never staying anywhere for more than five years. In 1920, she settled in Pasadena, California, which was where she first voted. (6:35-9:34)... During the suffrage drive, she was studying art and became a professional artist. She also traveled to Europe for several years. She believes that a woman's right to vote was only fair and proper. The liberal environment in which she was raised instilled the ideas that women should have certain rights, including owning property, and that voting requirements should not be based on sex. In particular, she discusses the extension of the vote to African American males after the Civil War, stating that it was unfair to extend the vote to former male slaves and not to women. She believes that Blacks should have had to earn the vote like the women. (9:34-11:37)... As a result of women having the right to vote, she does not notice anything different in women's lives. In fact, winning the vote did not make a difference in her own life, especially in her professional career. Spending time in Europe had an impact on her professional pursuits, stating that when she returned from Europe she focused on her career and often sent her artwork to dealers, beginning around 1914. (11:37-17:35)... She recalls that it was difficult for an artist to make a living unless he or she was a portrait painter. She discusses the integrity of the profession, alluding to the fact that ethics and honesty were not always key values when juries decided whether or not an artist's work would be exhibited at a gallery. She critiques society for its disregard of property lines and private property. In the past, people were much more innocent and honest. Parent-child relationships have changed because parents are often afraid to discipline their children for fear the discipline will damage them. Parents exhibit much less control over their children than in the past. (17:35-21:18)... When she returned to the United States from Europe, she painted and recalls visiting the McDowell Colony . Once she began pursuing her professional career, she was not involved in the suffrage movement, only periodically taking jobs as a ballot inspector. When she married and after she gave birth to her daughter she continued to paint and exhibit her work. However, the duties of being a mother and wife afforded her less time to work on her art. She describes some of her responsibilities as a ballot inspector. (21:18-26:48)... In regards to the changes in women's lives since 1912, she believes that women take their rights for granted, particularly the fact that they can work, vote, and even smoke. She also identifies women's fashions as a sign of change, stating that women now have more of a selection of clothing to choose from, although she dislikes some designs because of unflattering lines. For instance, there are certain kinds of pants that restrict women's movement and are dangerous because they get caught on objects when women walk. (26:48-28:59)... She believes that it is foolish for women to distinguish themselves from male artists. For example, she recalls a friend who joined Women Painters of America and states that there should be no gender lines in art. In general, studies in art, literature, and music should not be separated along race or gender lines. (28:59-30:52)... She believes that the women's liberation movement is necessary. Society should not discriminate against people because of their gender, nor should women be made to feel that they are a weaker class within a man's world. On the other hand, a woman cannot have both protection and equality, but must choose one. She goes on to discuss men's expectations of women seeking equality and how the absence of gender discrimination is apparent in very subtle ways. (30:52-33:40)... Interruption in tape. During World War II, she worked in a factory with both men and women and did not notice any signs of discrimination, only that there were some jobs that were not "suited" for certain people. Her supervisor reassigned her to deliver mail rather than drive a tractor. This decision was probably made based on her age and not because, as a woman, her supervisor believed she was incapable of driving a tractor. (33:40-38:27)... There are certain jobs or tasks that require more muscle and are not suited for women. Women are probably best in administrative jobs because they are used to handling their households and are better equipped for those types of positions than men are. However, while there are heavy tasks that most "brainy" women cannot do because they are not strong enough, most "intellectual" men probably cannot do those tasks either. Women are certainly completing tasks that they were incapable of doing in the past and are moving out of positions as seamstresses and telephone operators. While some women lack the physical strength necessary for certain occupations, most women simply lack the training and education required for professional positions. (38:27-42:16)... In line with her mother, Chamberlain believes that society is still very androcentric. However, while men have dominated for many centuries, women are still active in all areas. From an artistic point of view, women are not as good painters as men, mainly because women lack good training and are distracted by social obligations. While men focus on their careers, women view their careers as temporary precursors to marriage and family. Although men may dominate our culture, women still have a voice. For example, many of her mother's theories have been implemented, including communal living. (42:16-46:19)... In regards to family and marriage, it is a natural instinct for men and women to want to get married and have children. Both men and women should bring up a child together; a mother should not be solely responsible for raising a child as it decreases their sense of fairness. end of tape *** File: sufktchamberlain2.mp3 (0:00-2:07)... Talking about changes for men and women, she notes that people smoke cigarettes on the street more often than in the past. One improvement is that men are restricted from spitting on the streets. Traveling to Providence when she was nine years old, she noticed signs stating, "Do not spit on the sidewalks," which she believed were there for sanitary reasons. Hotels provided brass spittoons. Women had to lift their skirts to avoid spit and other debris in the roads, particularly in San Francisco. She discusses men's and women's clothing and how few people wear hats anymore. (2:07-4:12)... With regard to other changes in society, she believes there is a marked increase in alcohol consumption. A friend once told her that people who were not intellectuals drank more alcohol because it gave them courage to talk, while "brainier" people did not drink as much. Chamberlain thinks it is a very sad state of affairs for people to need alcohol in order to express themselves. When visiting Italy, she did not see anyone abusing alcohol or drinking too much; people were moderate wine drinkers there. (4:12-5:43)... Recalling her experiences in Italy, she notes that there were not many pizza restaurants there at the time, while in America pizza establishments are numerous. Although she has not revisited Italy since she left in 1911, she wonders if the food preparation has changed, or become Americanized, to suit foreigner's (American's) tastes. (5:43-10:04)... When she returned from Europe, she noted that women were mainly employed as telephone operators, seamstresses, secretaries, typists, and in sales. She does not recall if there were very many female clerks. There were many sweatshop workers and women who worked at home in unsanitary conditions. Although she did not generally notice many women in the professions, she had a woman lawyer who settled her stepmother's will. This woman had been a lawyer since 1925. Chamberlain also had other friends and acquaintances that were doctors, and notes that a woman doctor delivered her into the world. Her mother also saw a woman doctor when she believed something was wrong with her brain, at which time the doctor prescribed some very odd measures to help with her condition. This was very early in Chamberlain's life. This physician was one of the first woman doctors. (10:04-14:10)... During the suffrage movement, she was only involved in the 1912 suffrage parade; she was not involved in picketing in Washington. When she was about eight years old and was living in Oakland, she was a page in a congress in San Francisco. Her mother was on the platform at this congress. It was held in what seemed to her to be an enormous theater. She felt very important during the congress and helped out with mailings, licking the envelopes and postage stamps. She recalls running down the aisles with messages and hearing people on the platform speak, though what they said did not make an impression on her. She was also invited to a breakfast with her mother where she was seated with some very important people; she was the only child there. At a Cooper Union meeting in New York, she heard various speakers, including Harriet Stanton Blatch, but she did not pay very much attention to what their arguments were, though she e knew that their arguments were appropriate. (14:10-21:01)... When she was 16, she went to Summer Brook Farm with her mother; it was 20 miles from Westport. A Ms. Martin invited various guests to this retreat where she would read a selection from a book before dinner (one year it was the Bible, another it was Plato), which would generate discussions among the guests. The visitors there were a mixed lot, and her mother was invited every year. (21:01-25:17)... Edwin Markham and his family and John Phelps Stokes were among the guests at Summer Brook Farm. Among other events held there, she recalls a pageant being organized on behalf of a Greek scholar from Canada. She and her mother dressed in Greek costumes for the pageant. There were also two Concord "ladies" who went to Summer Brook, but Chamberlain could not remember very many women at the farm. (25:17-26:11)... While in San Francisco, her mother met Edwin Markham and they became close friends. During this time, her mother was going through a divorce and had to be very careful about appearing too intimate with another man for fear it would cause problems for her socially and legally. Her mother also took her to see Joaquin Miller who was described by her mother in her diary as a "dirty old man" because of his smoking habits. (26:11-29:13)... The first year she came to California she did not vote because of residency requirements. Although she strongly believes in the vote for women, she often felt as if voting was another chore because she had to read the arguments for and against certain laws before she cast her vote. She viewed voting as both a confusing and interesting process. During World War II, she was a census interviewer in the Czechoslovakian section in New York. Questions like, "Do you own any mules," did not make sense to many people. (29:13-36:18)... Because she grew up in an environment that heralded women's rights, change in women's lives have not been that noticeable to her. However, she does believe that women have assumed more responsibility than in the past. Although she did not encounter any difficulty as a child because of her mother's beliefs, even as a child she was different from other children. For instance, her clothing was very simple compared to other children's clothing, and not many children were wearing knickers and bloomers at the time. (36:18-39:43)... In speaking about her family's involvement in the woman's struggle, she recalls that her stepmother (Grace Channing) often instigated letter-writing campaigns for women's causes, and her mother carried the debate afterwards. Her stepmother taught the first free kindergarten in Providence, Rhode Island and was instrumental in the development of the Society for the Protection of Children. She also discusses her family's involvement with anti-slavery and liberal causes. (39:43-45:07)... She notes that her mother and stepmother were very good friends their entire lives. She discusses her mother's relationship with her stepmother's family, and how the Channings were very active in furthering liberal causes in comparison to her father's side of the family. end of tape
- SUBJECT BIO - Katherine Tolls Chamberlain, the daughter of Charlotte Perkins Gilman, was exposed early in her life both to the ideas of feminism and to key leaders in the 1910s women's movement. Her own active involvement, however, was limited largely to her participation in early suffrage parades. After this brief foray, she focused mainly on her own work as an artist. Chamberlain was recommended as a potential narrator for the Feminist History Research Project's suffragist series by Barbara (Una) Stannard, a San Francisco-based feminist author. She was a reluctant narrator, at best, and only one relatively short interview was conducted with her. Nevertheless, her interview provides interesting insights into the intellectual/social circles in which her mother traveled, and her own ideas about women's rights. TOPICS - Topics covered on this side of the tape include: reflections on her ideas on women; her mother's (Charlotte Perkins Gilman) ideas and peers; participation in the 1912 suffrage parade; and attempts to balance her career as an artist with her domestic life;Topics covered on this side of the tape cover: contacts with her mother's social circle, including various members of the literati; and insights into the close relationship between her mother, Charlotte Perkins Gilman, and her stepmother, Grace Channing;
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