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Kettler, Ernestine Hara (audio interview #5 of 6)
TOPICS - Topics covered on this side of the tape include: experiences in Seattle; police harassment; self imposed "exile" to Elby Washington; Seattle general strike; association with the Greenwich Village bohemian community; and attitudes and political beliefs about birth control, abortion and feminism;Topics covered on this side of the tape include: advocacy of sexual freedom; reflections on suffrage and feminism; and outlook on women's struggle for equality; 3/21/1973
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- *** File: sufehkettler9.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-2:03)... Tape introduction (2:03-5:00)... The first time her husband, A. L. Emerson, was arrested he was charged for being the recording secretary of the YPSL. These charges were dismissed when the judge learned that he was not the recording secretary of the group, nor was it a seditious group. The second time he was arrested occurred when the police charged him with carrying pornographic material, which they planted on him. This pornographic material was nude photographs of Kettler. (5:00-7:25)... The second time he was arrested, he jumped bail. At the time, the authorities were arresting Wobblies all over the country [Note: she had a difficult time assessing if this occurred around the time of the Palmer Raids in 1919, or not; nor could she recall if her husband's second arrest occurred because he violated the Comstock Laws. (7:25-9:44)... When he was arrested the second time and released on $300 bail, he did not return for sentencing. She believes his sentence would have been minimal because he already spent two or three months in a work house. They left Seattle and went to Tacoma for a few months and then Elby, Washington, where they stayed for a year. While living in Elby, she lived an isolated life. The town was very small with a population of approximately 400 people. They did have a social life with people within the town, and friends from the city visited them on occasion. (9:44-10:29)... Although she knew of Kate Sadler, she does not recall meeting her. She was familiar with Sadler through her associations with the Wobblies. (10:29-14:10)... After she married Emerson, they were harassed by the police on a regular basis. The police often came to their apartment and searched through their personal belongings. She was very angry at the police for violating her privacy. During one of the police raids, a police officer looked through her drawer and found a letter she wrote on birth control. At the time, anyone disseminating birth control information was subject to arrest. As the police officer read the letter, she talked incessantly to distract him, which worked because he did not understand what the contents of the letter. All of the women within her circle of friends were knowledgeable about birth control and talked about it openly. She recalls reading pamphlets on the subject. She does not recall hearing Margaret Sanger speak; everyone knew who she was and what her ideas were. She herself did not use any contraception. When she was young she got an abortion and was never able to get pregnant after that. Her feelings about birth control and contraceptives were based on her personal beliefs, rather than her personal experiences. (14:10-16:40)... At the time, the popular contraceptives were pessaries and diaphragms. She did not have any personal experiences with either. She obtained an abortion in New York City and in 1918, and she apparently received an operation while living in Washington, which ended her chances of getting pregnant. She is very reluctant to talk about the abortion on tape, stating that she did not have any recollection about the incident. (16:40-20:19)... The general strike in Seattle did not last for more than five days, except in some industries when it lasted for seven days. With the exception of hospitals and electricity, all of the industries in Seattle struck. Strikers obtained food from locations set up for them; all of the restaurants were closed in the city. The strike was very effective, which is why it lasted for only five days. Industrial barons, manufacturers, and city government officials realized they could not afford to have another strike of this magnitude. Many strikers in Seattle hoped that other cities would follow their lead and a national general strike would occur, which did not happen. (20:19-22:46)... During the general strike, she does not recall participating in any food drives. She attended the central Labor Temple meetings and was intrigued by the similarities between the Russian revolutionists and the arguments made by IWW and the socialist and radical elements involved in the strike. She recalls leaflets calling on workers and peasant strikes. There were even some Soviet ships in the harbor. Although she was unable to make the connections at the time, she believes the strike was both economically and politically motivated. (22:46-26:26)... When she attended meetings at the central Labor Temple, there were a lot of Wobblies and socialists on the Council. Many of the delegates supported the Russian Revolution and the Soviet Union. As a result, their resolutions were very similar to those developed by the Russians. At the time, most socialists were fighting for the same ideals in the United States as the Russian revolutionists in the Soviet Union. However, the socialists were naive in thinking that a similar revolution could occur in a technically developed country, which was not comparable to the backward economy and semi-feudal structure of Russia. There were a few women delegates on the Labor Temple Council though some unions were composed largely of women. She did not confront the issue, however, despite her belief that discrimination of any kind is wrong. Kettler did not see herself as a political activist, but as someone who lived among a group of people comprised of writers, artists, musicians, teachers, and professionals with both political and nonpolitical interests. Her ideals, therefore, were fragmented along these lines. (26:26-31:31)... Although she knew feminists in Greenwich Village, she was not involved in their social circle. She does not recall using the term "feminist" at the time. She proceeds to expoud on her ideas of the evolution of differences between men and women. She believes that because women failed to understand the history behind the development of gender ideology, they also failed to realize how insignificant the vote really was within society. Like men, women would also misuse the vote, which is one of democracy's misfortunes. In general, the women she associated with in anarchist, socialist and Wobbly circles, thought the same way as her. The men within these groups understood women's issues to a certain extent, but on the whole they felt superior to women mainly because women were not leaders as writers, philosophers, teachers, and artists. However, many women did not choose or want that type of life. She finds it unfortunate that talented and notable women are often described in masculine terms because there is only one standard by which to compare women. As a result, the traits that women possess are described as "masculine," rather than human traits inherent in both sexes. (31:31-34:59)... Her personal relationship with people in Greenwich Village lasted for approximately two years until she moved west. She describes the women in the group as dilettantes and nonpolitical; and describes herself as a bohemian interested in the artistic and intellectual appeal of this group. In general, there were political discussions because they lived in a political society. She did not play a distinct feminist role, but presented a feminist argument when the subject came up in discussion. (34:59-36:41)... There is a very general discussion of who she knew and what she believed vis a vis her associations with the Greenwich Village group. However, she does not recall much with regard to the questions posed. (36:41-42:05)... When she went to Washington, DC to participate in the suffrage movement, she was not serious about feminist ideals and does not recall talking to other suffragists about women's issues. She went to Washington, DC because she thought it would be an adventure; however, when she wound up in prison she realized it was not the enjoyable adventure she anticipated. Her knowledge of the suffrage movement and feminism developed as a result of her experiences in prison and afterwards. In general, she was not enthusiastic about joining large organizations until she got involved with unions. The suffragists she encountered were liberal conservatives. There were radicals involved in the movement, but she knew very few radical suffragists. The radicals she associated outside the suffrage movement were not affected by suffrage and did not wish to waste their time in that movement. On the whole, the suffragists were a conservative group of women from fine and wealthy families. These women were willing to sacrifice themselves for their cause. (42:05-43:41)... The suffragists' vision was limited to getting voting rights for women. This is even more obvious when one takes into consideration that Alice Paul continued to fight for the ERA after suffrage was won. When she asked representatives from the LWV if there were any other women in the organization who served sentences in the Occoquan Work House, they did not know any and referred her to Alice Paul. She did not join the LWV because she opposed "capitalistic politics." (43:41-45:55)... She views her participation in the suffrage movement as an expression of both her radicalism and her need for adventure. In a political sense, she vehemently disagreed with the political inequality women were experiencing. As a radical, she did not condone injustice in any instance and a woman's inability to vote was part of the injustice occurring within society at the time. She also disagreed with the notion that women were intellectually inferior to men, making them incapable of participating in the political process. end of tape *** File: sufehkettler10.mp3 (0:00-3:01)... Note: tape begins abruptly with a discussion on politics. Throughout her life, she believed in sexual freedom. At the time, she supported free love ideals because she was opposed to the puritanical idea that sex was immoral. She did not see free love as an expression of promiscuity; it did not make sense to her that a woman was considered moral only when she was married. She also subscribed to the idea circulating then that married women were simply legal prostitutes. She believes that a woman should continue to work after she is married to maintain her independence. Provided that a woman was intelligent and knowledgeable enough about contraceptives, she supports the practice of trial marriages; free love is useless if a woman does not protect herself from pregnancy and disease. (3:01-5:25)... Kettler's ideas regarding sexual freedom were in contrast to her mother's Victorian attitudes. Her mother had told her nothing, expecting her to learn about sex on the streets. After Kettler learned about sexual procreation and reproduction, she confronted her mother. She believes that young children are very curious about sex, but when they reach the ages of six through eleven they lose interest in sex, which probably occurs because parents tell them lies. (5:25-9:20)... As a child, her mind developed along radical and intellectual lines. She found that compared to other children, her intelligence was above normal and she was able to understand abstract thought. She developed her ideas on sexual freedom when she was fifteen years old and began confronting all of the lies her parents told her about sex. She did not accept the idea that sex was filthy because this meant that her parents engaged in a dirty act. This also contradicted the stories she heard about "love nests." Her inquisitiveness on the subject was a rebellious reaction against what she was told by her mother and what she figured out on her own, but she could not coordinate the two until she found out that sex was both normal and necessary for reproduction. She claims that it was her philosophical nature to analyze subjects from several different points of view, which is what she did regarding both sex and capitalism. (9:20-10:44)... In general, the changes she recognized were within unions. Although, feminism was not necessarily an issue within unions, women have fought for economic equality there. Unless a particular issue arose regarding feminism, she did not talk about the subject. However, when she did talk about these issues, the women she associated with did not disagree with her. (10:44-11:48)... It was difficult for her to assess the changes within society regarding women because she did not recognize those changes as she lived through them. However, when a movement is violent, such as the feminist movement, it is a easier to recognize change. She describes the feminist movement as a violent movement because women are intellectually persistent in changing the status of women and their image within society, to the extent that men can no longer ignore their struggle. In this sense, the woman's movement is comparable to the suffrage movement and the picketing activities in 1918. (11:48-16:24)... The vote was a minor right for her. However, women placed so much importance on the vote that when they got it, it appeared as a huge victory when, in fact, it was only one issue among many. Women are still fighting for economic equality and other personal and political rights. She identifies child care as the major current issue for both men and women. Parents are reluctant to hire others to care for their children, but they do not realize that children are better off spending time with other children. Parents also have a difficult time affording child care and many women are the sole supporters of their children. Parents are enslaved to their children, which is not beneficial for the parents or the children. (16:24-20:19)... Since suffrage, Alice Paul fought for the ERA because women continued to experience economic, social, and political inequality. As long as women are restricted, no one will never know if they are capable of learning and succeeding in these areas. Men do not want to see a continuation of the female struggle, which is why they granted women the vote and why she believes the ERA will succeed [Note: the interview was recorded before it became evident that the ERA would not be successfully ratified.] Women have received equality in several areas, but both men and women will continue to fight for their rights as long as society exists. Although men think they are superior to women, they are economically, socially, and politically in bondage as women are. "What women have to fight for are the specific needs of herself as a human being, not as a sexual object. " (20:19-23:23)... In a general sense, the suffrage movement and the women's liberation movement are not comparable because the suffrage movement was for one issue, while the women's liberation movement is a struggle that encompasses many issues. The ERA includes several clauses and women will have to fight for each clause separately. Kettler believes that men were beginning to realize that women are discriminated against in employment and education, and that women are not intellectually inferior and have a place in society besides the kitchen. People have realized that prejudice is a bad way of thinking, which is one of the reasons why attitudes have changed towards women. It will always be a minority that fights for social change, while the majority will benefit from the minority struggle. For instance, many women do not know the struggle women endured to get the vote. She experienced this at a NOW meeting when someone mentioned that she had been in jail for thirty days because of her suffrage activities. After the meeting, several women thanked her for her efforts. She did not realize how very little is known about the suffrage movement because it is not a part of history taught in schools. (23:23-24:19)... Kettler knew several women her age who shared her concept of feminism. Within radical circles, women who are more tolerant of a universal concept of feminism than fifty years ago. She also believes that there were conservative women who accepted the fact that discrimination affected their lives and personal development. (24:19-25:15)... In the 1910s and 1920s, she did not refer to herself as a feminist. When she was involved in the suffrage activity, she was called a "suffragette." When women got the vote, it was not a personal victory for her. At the time, she believed that women were justified in demanding the right to vote. (25:15-28:16)... In her opinion, "flappers" did not represent any kind of new freedom for women. They were referred to as flappers because they "flapped." At the time, men were not very flattering towards women and categorizing women as flappers was a symbolic way of designating women within that era. She did not associate with anyone who called herself a flapper. Freedom for women was not represented in any one thing, such as the vote or the flapper, but was a broader issue that included eliminating men's attitude that women were inferior beings. Her conception of freedom was represented in political, social, and economic equality for women. end of tape
- SUBJECT BIO - Ernestine Kettler was one of the suffragists who was arrested for picketing the White House with the National Woman's Party. She served time at the Occoquan Work House, where she participated in the strikes launched by the suffragist prisoners to be recognized as political prisoners. Shortly after this, Kettler went west, where she worked initially with the I.W.W. (Industrial Workers of the World) and later for various trade unions in both San Francisco and Los Angeles. She remained an ardent feminist her entire life and had a long history of labor and socialist activism. Her involvement with the suffrage struggle, though short-lived, was an outgrowth of both her feminist beliefs and her ties to political and bohemian circles in New York that began in her teen years. Kettler was among the former suffragists who spoke at the Jubilee celebration of woman's suffrage in Los Angeles, and she was referred to the Feminist History Research Project by leaders of Los Angeles NOW. Approximately 7 hours were recorded with her in January and February, 1973, when she was 78 years old. The interviews were conducted mainly in her room at a residential hotel overlooking MacArthur Park in Los Angeles. A petite woman, who was still very intellectually inquiring and physically vigorous, she nevertheless seemed rather depressed. Her health failed over the next two years, and she moved into an assisted living facility, where a final, brief interview was conducted in 1975. She lived there until her death in 1978. TOPICS - Topics covered on this side of the tape include: experiences in Seattle; police harassment; self imposed "exile" to Elby Washington; Seattle general strike; association with the Greenwich Village bohemian community; and attitudes and political beliefs about birth control, abortion and feminism;Topics covered on this side of the tape include: advocacy of sexual freedom; reflections on suffrage and feminism; and outlook on women's struggle for equality;
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