Other
Kettler, Ernestine Hara (audio interview #4 of 6)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the fourth interview with Ernestine Hara Kettler. In it she traces her peripatetic life over the 14 years following her return to the east coast and then her move back west. 2/14/1973
- Date
- 2020-01-28
- Resource Type
- Creator
- Campus
- Keywords
- Handle
- Language
- Notes
- *** File: sufehkettler7.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-2:06)... Tape introduction (2:06-4:35)... In 1923, Kettler moved to Butte, Montana, and by 1924 she was in Chicago. As she traveled east, she went to Michigan for a few weeks and describes this as a domestic period in her life, as she was not involved in any political activities. She knew very little about her husband's background at the time; just that he was from Michigan and worked as a newspaper journalist before she met him. Because of poor eyesight, he then left this career and became involved with the IWW. After she separated from him and he left Seattle in 1924-25, he completely disappeared and she has no recollection of his activities with the IWW. She could not recall what transpired when she filed for divorce and if, in fact, she was able to locate her husband to sign the divorce documents. (4:35-5:57)... She decided to leave Seattle for personal reasons. She and her husband had a very tumultuous relationship; largely because he was a jealous person. She did not have anything holding her to Seattle and when she heard of a job in Butte, Montana, she decided to leave. She lived in Butte for approximately a year and a half, during which time she did office work for the IWW; then returned to New York, stopping in Chicago for six months. (5:57-10:22)... When she went to Chicago she worked at the IWW headquarters. Prior to the 1924 convention, a committee meeting was held, during which political arguments erupted between the two factions in the IWW. She took notes during this meeting and recalls that the dissension in the IWW was between communist sympathizers and the anti-political faction. She believes that personal animosity existed between the two groups in Seattle, too, which is where the split probably began. She discusses her criticism of IWW's political views, stating that the organization is dying, but may rise again if the members can envision an organization and society that includes political activity. It is a contrary philosophy to differentiate between group politics and capitalist politics, and the IWW's efforts to lump all politics into one category creates a superficial and narrow definition of politics. (10:22-12:00)... When she worked for the IWW, she worked alongside the bookkeepers and stenographers in the business office. The organization was financed through membership dues and she was paid for her work in both Butte and Chicago. There were approximately thirty employees who worked at the headquarters in Chicago, which included representatives of the various unions and their support staff. (12:00-13:18)... She did not join the IWW until she worked for them in Butte, Montana. She continued her membership while working for the IWW in Chicago, but discontinued her membership when she returned to New York. (13:18-17:40)... She personally identified herself as a feminist and often argued with people within her political circles about women's issues. There were men in the movement who developed arguments against feminism, but she did not accept those arguments. Following her experiences with the suffrage movement in Washington, DC, she curtailed her feminist arguments because she began to view the vote as a danger rather than a benefit. In essence, she believes that people vote for candidates that will maintain a capitalistic society. As a woman, getting the vote became immaterial to her because she did not want to vote for candidates that opposed her political beliefs. If there was a socialist candidate running, she voted for that person. She never voted for a democratic candidate, even F.D.R., believing that the reforms that occurred under his administration were necessary to support a capitalistic society. (17:40-19:01)... In general, most of her associations were with Wobblies and anarchists. When the IWW dissolved in the 1920s, her political alliance was torn between anarchism and socialism; however, she was not active in either movement. She did not become politically active until 1938 when she met a group of Trotskyites and her education in political theory began. (19:01-23:38)... When she returned to New York, she worked for a committee of the Communist Party that distributed motion pictures from the Soviet Union in the United States. This was a business and she was paid for this position. During her employment, she met many communists and learned a great deal about communism. She was opposed to communism because of its authoritarianism. At the time, the communists were attempting to colonize people within industries and they asked her to assist them with this work; however, she refused. For instance, they asked her to join the office of the garment workers union so that she could influence their policies there. (23:38-28:05)... During the summer, she went to Madison, Wisconsin and took courses in German and Asian history. She was there for eight weeks. She decided to leave New York and return to Seattle because the west coast climate appealed to her. While in Seattle, she married again and settled into a quiet life that was not politically active. During her marriage, she continued to work except for a period of approximately one year when she stayed home and her husband supported her. Her husband was not political and very simple. She continued to have feminist views throughout her marriage and her husband did not disagree with her arguments. She believes that her husband was not a proper choice because they were not intellectual companions. Following her husband's death, she returned to New York and lived there for a year and a half, joining the CIO while there. She recalls that there was always a communist faction struggling for the political and economic recognition of the Soviet Union, in addition to better working conditions and wages. (28:05-32:18)... After leaving New York in 1938, she returned to Sausalito where she previously lived with her husband. She transferred her membership to the Office Employees Union in San Francisco, and was active in this union until she retired. She wrote articles for the organization's paper and gain notoriety with a group of Trotskyites who recruited her to join the Socialist Workers Party. Although she did not join them for two years, her political and social life centered around her participation with this group. She dedicated herself to reading and educating herself about history and politics. (32:18-36:06)... Although she encountered feminist arguments among socialists, they were very infrequent. If she did have an argument, it generally centered on a woman's ability to absorb knowledge just as quickly and efficiently as a man. In general, socialists believed in equality between the sexes, but prescribed to the ideal that no one would have equality within a capitalistic government. She discusses the differences within the Socialist Workers Party between the communist and anti-communist factions. (36:06-40:50)... During her second marriage, she led a domestic life and was not involved in any union activities. She refers to this period of her life as the "dead" years, in which she was not involved in any political activities. She never considered having children. Although she liked children, she did not wish to raise a child in the environment that prevailed. She expressed some hesitation to discuss the subject. However, she believes that her decision not to have children was a good one, particularly in light of the fact that many families are unhappy as a result of parent-child difficulties. (40:50-44:28)... After she returned to San Francisco in 1938, she eventually took a job with the WPA, interviewing applicants. She was placed on three projects until she was "kicked out" in 1939. She then found work with several different unions in San Francisco through her membership with the Office Employees Union. The union contracted with all of the union offices in the area and sent workers to unions requiring assistance. end of tape *** File: sufehkettler8.mp3 (0:00-1:48)... Note: tape begins with a discussion on the Office Employees Union. The Office Employees Union also contracted with private businesses. In contrast to the Oakland local, the San Francisco local was not organized. When she received the Office Employees Union international newspaper, the San Francisco local was seldom even mentioned. (1:48-2:49)... With the exception of acting as the Sergeant at Arms for a few years, she did not hold any other positions on the board of the Office Employees Union. She often had problems with the employers she worked for when they did not abide by union clauses in her contract. Unfortunately, when she reported these incidences to the business agent of the Office Employees Union, she implied that Kettler should keep her mouth shut. (2:49-5:21)... The San Francisco local of the Office Employees Union experienced problems because of internal conflicts. The CIO and its communists sympathizers initiated talks on leaving the American Federation of Labor. When the split ultimately occurred, the communists and the CIO union assumed another name. The AFL union remained the Office Employees Union, but was required to change their local union number. (5:21-7:07)... Following the split in the Office Employees Union, the AFL sent representatives to San Francisco to speak to its members. She recalls that the first meeting was very disappointing because the members were given the same directives they received from the communists in the CIO. However, Bill Becker recognized that the members were disillusioned and told them that the AFL would not make demands on the new local. (7:07-11:12)... The AFL Office Employees Union had about 600 members, or about 75% of the original union. The majority of union members were women. At the time of the split, she considered herself anti-communist. She believes the communists were dishonest and attempted to get union members to sign a document they did not understand. (11:12-12:56)... The people who split from the communists were radicals, socialists, Trotskyites, liberals, and conservatives. When the union split occurred, many women who worked for a large industry contract also split along the same lines. However, these women decided to remain independent because they were disillusioned by union politics. In addition, women working for the Office Employees Union were often impoverished, while the business agent and organizer of the union were paid $10 per week by the state AFL , a large wage at the time. (12:56-17:05)... She remained a member of the Office Employees Union from 1938 to 1948, when she moved to Los Angeles. During her ten-year membership with the union, she had a poor relationship with the business agent of the organization, who attempted to expel Kettler and four other members from the union. When a committee interviewed her and the three other women, they found no reason to expel them from the union. Her dispute with the business agent was along political lines and she did not violate any union policies. The business agent referred to the union as a business. Kettler argued with this woman, stating the union was a "beneficial association organized to benefit its members." (17:05-19:17)... In 1948, she moved to Los Angeles because she was tired of the San Francisco climate. When she came to Los Angeles, she met a lot of Wobblies. She lived with Mary Gallagher in her rooming house for several months; she did not have a room there, but often slept in either Gallagher's room or in other areas within the house. (19:17-21:26)... While living in San Francisco, she worked for the ILGWU. Although the work was good, the women she worked with were catty and often complained about their jobs and pay; however, they did not do anything to help their situation. She ultimately quit working for them and went to work for the Operating Engineers Union, which was also a very good job. This position was supposed to be temporary, but she stayed with the union for eight months. Her employment there ended when she decided to move to Los Angeles. (21:26-24:43)... When she worked for the Operating Engineers Union, her co-workers asked her to be their spokeswoman and discuss their complaints with Victor Swanson, the secretary of the union at the time. He held Kettler in high regard and during meetings, she addressed the women's concerns. At one later meeting, he pointed out all of the liberties the women enjoyed while working for him, which minimized their complaints. Apparently, Swanson later defrauded the union and was arrested and given a jail sentence. (24:43-27:49)... While living in Los Angeles, she encountered Victor Swanson again at an AFL convention. She requested a hearing on behalf of a friend who was blind and wanted the union to provide the blind with certain conditions. When the executive committee agreed to hold a hearing on this issue, Victor Swanson stood up and personally greeted her as she walked into the meeting. She believes that had she been a well-trained speaker, she could have worked in union organizing because a lot of women regarded her as their speaker in regards to issues with the unions. (27:49-29:06)... When she moved to Los Angeles, she continued to work with unions, with the exception of one occasion when she worked for a private business as a bookkeeper. In 1952, she returned to San Francisco where she lived and worked for unions for approximately a year and a half. She then returned to Los Angeles and continued to work for unions until 1965 when she retired. (29:06-32:00)... Although several people persuaded her to join the League of Women Voters (LWV), she refused because it was a foreign element to her. Around 1969, she went to a NOW meeting at Joe's Chicken Restaurant located on 8th and Vermont in Los Angeles. At the time, NOW reserved a large banquet room in the back of the restaurant, where they ate dinner and held their meeting. She attended approximately six meetings before she finally joined the organization. At the first meeting she attended, she informed the women at the reception desk that she was a suffragist who was imprisoned for picketing the White House. The organization did not realize the impact of her activities in the suffrage movement until their large celebration of the 50th anniversary of woman's suffrage in August 1970. (32:00-34:28)... There were very few women at the NOW meetings in her age bracket. She believes that women her age were disgusted with NOW's concentration on sexual issues, which occurred early on in the organization's development. At one meeting, NOW held a play, during which a woman approximately seventy years old stood up and said, "Can't you girls think of anything but sex. This whole meeting has been devoted to sex and I think that's filthy." This negative view of sex was something Kettler fought against her entire life. She recalls her mother telling her that sex was filthy, and realizing at the age of 15 that it was not filthy, but was a taboo subject . (34:28-37:58)... As an adolescent, she recalls hearing about "love nests," but did not understand why anyone persisted in engaging in a dirty act. As a result, she began to question her mother's insistence that sex was filthy. When she belonged to the Labor Temple in New York she asked a teacher about "love nests". The teacher verified everything she heard about sex from the streets and told her that children are not told about sex because it was a delicate subject. She finds it interesting that years later women came to NOW meetings with the same archaic notions about sex. If women her age are members of NOW they are probably women who have been misinformed about sex throughout their lives, like herself. Women want the right to understand sex and have the option to an education on birth control and venereal diseases. (37:58-41:55)... As a member of NOW, Kettler's only activity was going to meetings. Her activities were limited because she did not have a way to get to the activities sponsored by NOW. Kettler felt more committed to NOW than to the women's liberation movement because she met some communists in the women's liberation movement and doesn't agree with communist ideals. She believes that the women's liberation movement started badly, but is recovering. Initially, the issues in the women's liberation movement were not important. For instance, the general discrimination of women is a basis for women's liberation, but burning bras seemed immaterial to her. The goal of the current woman's movement is to pass all of the clauses developed in the ERA, which will happen sporadically. The inequality in wages and the belief that women are intellectually inferior to men are two very important issues that she felt must be address in the women's movement. end of tape
- SUBJECT BIO - Ernestine Kettler was one of the suffragists who was arrested for picketing the White House with the National Woman's Party. She served time at the Occoquan Work House, where she participated in the strikes launched by the suffragist prisoners to be recognized as political prisoners. Shortly after this, Kettler went west, where she worked initially with the I.W.W. (Industrial Workers of the World) and later for various trade unions in both San Francisco and Los Angeles. She remained an ardent feminist her entire life and had a long history of labor and socialist activism. Her involvement with the suffrage struggle, though short-lived, was an outgrowth of both her feminist beliefs and her ties to political and bohemian circles in New York that began in her teen years. Kettler was among the former suffragists who spoke at the Jubilee celebration of woman's suffrage in Los Angeles, and she was referred to the Feminist History Research Project by leaders of Los Angeles NOW. Approximately 7 hours were recorded with her in January and February, 1973, when she was 78 years old. The interviews were conducted mainly in her room at a residential hotel overlooking MacArthur Park in Los Angeles. A petite woman, who was still very intellectually inquiring and physically vigorous, she nevertheless seemed rather depressed. Her health failed over the next two years, and she moved into an assisted living facility, where a final, brief interview was conducted in 1975. She lived there until her death in 1978. TOPICS - Topics covered on this side of the tape include a discussion of Kettler's two marriages; political involvement and beliefs, membership in the IWW, SWP, CIO, and her work for various unions as a member of the Office Employees Union in San Francisco;Topics covered on this side of the tape include: membership and activism in the Office Employees Union; the factional fighting and splits in the Office Employees Union; work and living arrangements, 1939-1965; and her involvement in and view of NOW and the women's liberation movement;
- Rights Note
- This repository item may be used for classroom presentations, unpublished papers, and other educational, research, or scholarly use. Other uses, especially publication in any form, such as in dissertations, theses, articles, or web pages are not permitted without the express written permission of the individual collection's copyright holder(s). Please contact the CSULB Library Administration (http://www.csulb.edu/library/Common/SubmittedForms/digital_rep_request.html) should you require permission to publish or distribute any content from this collection or if you need additional information or assistance in using these materials.
Relationships
- In Collection:
Items
| Thumbnail | File information | Actions |
|---|---|---|
|
0547180799077795-sufehkettler7.mp3 Public
|
Download |
|
|
7393476824371449-sufehkettler8.mp3 Public
|
Download |
|
|
7711067328874620-sufehkettler1.jpg Public
|
Download |
|
|
1142763613701566-sufehkettler2.jpg Public
|
Download |