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Polliard, Mary (audio interview #3 of 3)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the last of three interviews conducted with Mary Polliard in her hilltop home in Malibu. She remained warm, friendly and engaged throughout the interview, despite the discomfort caused by her long-term back problems. 6/29/1981
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- 2021-07-27
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- SUBJECT BIO - Mary Polliard went to work at Northrop Aviation in 1943, shortly after she separated from her husband. Born in Honey Grove, Texas, the last of three children, Polliard did farm work and handy work after completed the tenth grade. Following her marriage in 1936, she became a full-time homemaker for the next seven years. She moved to California with her husband in 1939, finally settling in Los Angeles in 1943. When Polliard went to the US Employment Office to apply for a defense job, she was dissuaded from going to work from Douglas. She was given the impression that the women who worked there were "rough" and was referred to Northrop Aviation instead. After a week of riveting training, unable to tolerate the noise, she transferred to the job shop and became one of the first women at Northrop to operate a milling machine. Polliard was not laid off at war's end and continued in production until 1946, after which she was forced to take a clerical job. She married a supervisor three years later and continued to work until 1952, becoming one of the "Northrop family." Although Polliard took tailoring classes in adult education and attended beauty school for two years after she left Northrop, she remained a full-time homemaker after the birth of her son in 1955. She suffered from health problems as a result of an accident when he was small. TOPICS - Plant 3 foreman's attitude towards women; assignment in Plant 3; work attire; wages; transfer to Plant 1; confidentiality and security clearance; company policy on relationships between department clerks and supervwomen and minorities at Northrop during postwar period; hiring quotas; work ethic among Black employees; worker relationships; marital relationship; managing household; building first home; decision to leave Northfriendship with Black former Northrop worker; parenting skills; son's childhood activities; husband's relationship with son; parenting; husband's family background; son interests and job at Northrop; purchasing prhiring contractors to build Malibu home; contractors' reactions to working with a woman; social life and activities; future expectations; impact of defense work on her life; working with men; postwar personnel workviews on child rearing and parenting; drug and alcohol abuse among youths; son's anti-drug activities; changing roles and opportunities for women; treatment of women at Northrop; attitudes towards women's movement,
- *** File: rrrmpolliard7.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-2:22)... When she was transferred to Plant 3 following the war, her foreman complained that he was tired of working with "balling women." Polliard, however, was not the crying type and regardless of his attempts to get her to quit, she persisted. Within two weeks, she was doing some machine work and less menial tasks. She notes that he also took his "lumps" during the postwar period when he was demoted to assistant foreman. They ultimately became close friends and stayed in contact after they left Northrop. (2:22-4:05)... Polliard worked as a department clerk in Plant 3 for two years, during which time she began dating her second husband, Tom Polliard. When he was promoted to leadman, she was required to transfer because Northrop prohibited romances or marriages between clerks and supervisors in the same department. In 1947, she returned to Plant 1 and began working as a department clerk for a foreman in the Boeing flap section. She was required to undergo a security clearance and sign a confidentiality agreement because the work in the department was top secret. (4:05-5:40)... Polliard believes that she was given the opportunity to become a clerk in Plant 3 because she was a Mason's daughter. The department foremen were Masons and promised that she would not receive a pay cut if she accepted the assignment. Her machine shop wage at that time was $1.11 per hour, which was the same wage for "A" classified clerks. Even though she was not qualified for this clerk classification, she earned this title and classification within six months. At her experience level, her wages should have been $1.01 per hour when she began working as a department clerk. (5:40-7:32)... After she was transferred to Plant 1 in 1947, she worked as a department clerk for six months before she was transferred to Department 3 (sheet metal) where she was required to undergo a security clearance. She describes the differences in the record-keeping systems for personnel in the machine shop and personnel in the sheet metal department. (7:32-9:02)... She continued to wear pants and low-heeled shoes when she began working as a department clerk. However, she started wearing more feminine blouses instead of the plain, cotton shirts she wore while in production. Even though some of the department clerks wore dresses and high heels, she "enjoyed the freedom of wearing pants and it was cheaper too." (9:02-16:49)... The only area in which clerks and production personnel were separated was in the department office. Polliard was in constant contact with production in all other areas of the plant. Department clerks were the intermediaries between production personnel and department foremen. Between 1948-50, the department went through seven major layoffs and she was responsible for terminating as many as 100 people a day. The production staff was reduced from 8,000 to 2,500 workers. [Note: She becomes emotional when discussing her experiences laying people off during this period.] Polliard discusses the varying work ethics related both to age and gender. In addition to handling layoffs, she was expected to investigate personnel complaints on behalf of her foreman. She was liked by the production personnel and no one referred to her pejoratively as "Mrs. Efficiency." (16:49-20:12)... Polliard met her husband at Northrop in 1946 while introducing him to the machine shop in Plant 3. He was married at the time, but after he and wife separated, they began dating. They dated for approximately a year and a half before marrying in April 1949. In 1951, they moved into a custom-built home in Playa Del Rey. Polliard was not overly enthusiastic about the prospect of re-marrying but, she comments: "my mother instinct got in there...[and] I felt sorry for him" because he came from a difficult family background. She would have preferred to stay single, particularly since she thought she would never have children. (20:12-23:04)... Polliard explains her comment about her maternal instincts, noting that she believes it is natural for married men to see their wives as maternal figures. Women represent various roles in marriage and usually lose their independence. For instance, her husband expected her to quit Northrop after they married. However, she continued working for three years because her husband brought nothing into the marriage and it was up to her to save and prepare for the future. They decided to purchase a lot and build a home in Playa Del Rey. Their two-bedroom home cost $13,500 to build. They only planned for a two-bedroom home because she thought she was infertile. However, she got pregnant six years later and had a son in 1955. (23:04-26:59)... It was quite an adjustment for Polliard to re-marry after living alone for five years. Her husband demanded a lot of her time, which she found difficult because she was so independent. After he was promoted to assistant foreman, he began working alternating shifts, which gave her more freedom to do her own thing and work on their new home. Their combined wages made it possible for them to decrease their mortgage and debt payments. She was concerned about their debts because if anything happened to her husband she would struggle to make the payments with her limited salary. When she left Northrop in 1952, she was making $1.89 per hour. During a four-year period her wages remained stagnant at $1.49. The company went through a few more financial slumps after she left and her husband's pay was cut twice within a two-year period. End of tape. *** File: rrrmpolliard8.mp3 (0:03-4:13)... During the postwar period, more women were hired at Northrop, many of whom had worked during the war. As a result of the Civil Rights Movement, Blacks were hired for the first time in 1952, and hiring quotas were established in the plant. She comments that Blacks were not qualified for the work and had little, if any, training. All of the department clerks and supervisors were required to undergo racial tolerance training, during which they were told not to refer to anyone as a "Negro" and to treat all minorities respectfully and fairly. Most of the racial problems occurred on the production floor because she claims that some Blacks had the attitude of "I don't have to work. I'm Black." Whenever a Black employee contested a disciplinary action or termination, the NAACP and labor relations negotiated a settlement. (4:13-10:38)... Polliard never thought about going back into machine work. In fact, she decided to leave Northrop because most of her paycheck went towards income taxes. Also, the double burden of her work and domestic responsibilities were taking a toll on her physically and emotionally. She describes a few incidents that occurred in the plant that illustrated the familial bond between co-workers. (10:38-16:22)... Polliard discusses her marital relationship and how they made household decisions. Eventually, her husband learned that she was going to do whatever she wanted whether he agreed with it or not. Even though her husband was egotistical, he was raised to respect women and was not chauvinistic. Their weaknesses and strengths complimented each other, with her being the pusher and fighter and him being the stable and steady person. She details the arrangements she made to build their home in Playa Del Rey. Their home bordered the Los Angeles Airport and after twenty-three years, they were forced to sell because of airport expansion. (16:22-18:55)... After Polliard left Northrop, she was called back a month later to fill in for a department clerk on leave. She stayed for three months substituting for clerks throughout the plant. She loved being a homemaker. To keep herself busy, she went back to school to learn tailoring and became a professional men's tailor. She also was active in the civil defense organization in her neighborhood. (18:55-20:23)... Learning that she was pregnant in 1955 came as quite a shock since doctors told Polliard that she was infertile. She was thirty-eight years old when she found out she was pregnant and was ecstatic about it because she always wanted children. She had no problems during her pregnancy, but had to have a caesarian because of her age and previous medical problems. When her son was two and a half years old, she had a hysterectomy. (20:23-23:16)... Polliard talks about how her life changed after she had a son. When he was five years old, she fell while climbing a hill with him and severely injured her back. She was bedridden for ten months and suffered from back pain for ten years. Her recovery was difficult because she had improper medical treatment. She later found out that her son blamed himself for her injury. (23:16-26:38)... Polliard notes that when she was recovering from her back injury is when she learned who her real friends were. A neighbor who she had never met before took care of her son for ten days while she was in the hospital. Occasionally, her friends came by for brief visits, but most people stayed away. Her son learned how to cook and do laundry when he was six years old. She also was assisted by a former co-worker of her husband's, who she lovingly referred to as her "Black sister." End of tape. *** File: rrrmpolliard9.mp3 (0:06-5:35)... Polliard talks about her friendship with a Black woman who worked with her husband at Northrop. When she was laid off from Northrop, she gave Polliard's husband her number and told him to call if ever he had childcare or housecleaning needs. Polliard hired her to clean her house after she had her son. They became close friends when they realized they grew up only fifteen miles away from each other. When Loudele got married, she asked Polliard to be a bridesmaid. Polliard recalls the dumbfounded looks on Loudele's friends' faces. During the first few years of their friendship, Loudele refused to go out in public with Polliard because of people's uneasiness with interracial bonds. (5:35-8:03)... Because of Polliard's back injury, her son had somewhat of an unusual childhood, but he was a very outgoing and happy boy. They always had a close relationship. He preferred that his friends play at his house because he thought the other mothers fussed too much compared to Polliard. Most of the parents in the neighborhood were in their thirties and above. (8:03-14:20)... Her husband was like most men of her generation and felt that fathers were not supposed to get involved in raising their children until a certain age. When her son was six years old, he and his father joined the Indian Guides. She believes that this group activity taught men how to be fathers and she was grateful for the impact it had on her husband's relationship with their son. She believes that for many years, her husband was jealous of her relationship with their son because he did not have a relationship with his own mother and expected Polliard to fill that void in his life. (14:20-17:27)... After Polliard's son outgrew Indian Guides and the other activities in which he and his father participated, they became interested in hunting and motorcycles. They took trips to the desert on the weekends and occasionally went to Mexico on riding trips. She never got involved in this activity with her son because she did not want to see him get hurt. After he graduated from high school, he got a job with his father at Northrop. (17:27-18:41)... Although Polliard's son had machinist training because they had their own machine shop at home, he hired in at Northrop as a trainee. Her husband introduced him to everyone he knew at the plant, but he did not get any special privileges because he was a foremen's son. (18:41-27:02)... When the Los Angeles Airport initiated condemnation proceedings in her neighborhood, Polliard and two families made plans to purchase property and build homes together in order to minimize expenses. They searched for property in Malibu for two years, but did not find anything. During this time, Polliard was laid up with medical problems. She ultimately abandoned the idea of a collaborative building effort and began looking for property on her own. She and her husband located a piece of land in Malibu for which they paid $18,250. They were forced to sell their home in Playa Del Rey two years later and broke ground on their Malibu home in 1975. She goes into detail regarding their design plans and the contractors she hired to build their 2,050-square-foot home. End of tape. *** File: rrrmpolliard10.mp3 (0:00-6:49)... Polliard details the process of building their home in Malibu. Her husband left her in charge of hiring contractors and overseeing the construction. Whenever she interviewed a contractor she informed him that he would be working with her and not her husband. She never had any problems with the contractors she hired and they built her home extremely well and according to schedule. (6:49-11:43)... Occasionally, Polliard interviewed contractors who "talked down to me and if they couldn't deal then I didn't hire them." She gave all of her contractors a six-month deadline because she had to be out of her home in Playa Del Rey within that period. She went to her property every day during construction and swept and cleaned the work site. One of her contractors told her that she was "the hardest working woman he saw in his life." (11:43-14:27)... She moved into her Malibu home on August 20, 1975. Since then, she has kept herself busy with landscaping and sewing projects. She is also a member of the Malibu Orchid Society. The majority of members are couples similar in age to her and her husband. Their gatherings include potluck dinners, picnics, and holiday parties. Polliard and her husband socialize with these couples outside orchid society activities. (14:27-20:03)... Polliard is not looking forward to growing old. She feels the same as she did when she was eighteen aside from her physical condition. She has mixed emotions about her husband's retirement because "men tend to become whiny babies when they retire." She often listens to the women in her sewing and craft classes complain about how dependent their husbands have become. She hopes that her husband's hobbies will keep him busy enough so that he does not behave this way. He is also thinking about working at Northrop on a part-time or on-call basis after he retires. (20:03-22:42)... Looking back over the war years, Polliard comments: "I really don't know what would have happened to me had there not been a war because that was the only chance there was to actually get out and break away and go to work." Working with men helped her to become more confident. Her male co-workers encouraged her to stand up for herself and they "really gave us girls our self-esteem. It took us the rest of the way." (22:42-25:48)... Polliard discusses the time she handled the personnel records for eight departments and also refers to a complaint she initiated about a department clerk on the day shift. She did not worry about the repercussions of this incident because she felt it was worth fighting for, stating, "they were expecting too much of us girls at night." End of tape. *** File: rrrmpolliard11.mp3 (0:00-5:27)... Polliard comments on the erosion of proper parenting, commenting that after the war parents wanted to go play and would leave and neglect their children. She attributes drug and alcohol abuse to this. Her son never got involved in drugs because he saw how prescription drugs affected her. When he was in high school, he helped organize anti-drug programs and found that the main reason kids use drugs is because they lack self-esteem and parental guidance. People criticized her for being too strict and tough on her son, but she felt it was important to teach him rules so that he would be accepted in society. She believes that young women now have more opportunities and "they don't have to be domestic servants (housewives). Nobody wants you if you've been a housewife [because] you don't have any skills." If Polliard had a daughter, she would have had freedom of opportunity and choice. She would have taught her daughter about things like birth control and prepared her for life. She does not believe in double standards among men and women, especially when it comes to sex. (5:27-7:20)... Polliard notes that, in contrast to the contemporary period, the only jobs available to women while she was growing up were nursing, teaching, waitressing, and motherhood. If she had a daughter, she would discourage her from going into factory work unless she wanted to work at Northrop. She returns to the theme of the respectful treatment women received at Northrop during the years she was employed there. Although during the war defense plants got the reputation of being "whore houses," it was not that way at Northrop because the people there were "above average in morality." (7:20-11:10)... When asked about the woman's movement, ERA, and abortion, Polliard states, "I know we need equal rights.... There are still a lot of chauvinists in the world who think that a woman's place is in the home or in the bed." She opposed abortion until she moved in next door to a woman who abused her child. She realized then that women should not have children if they are unwanted. She has also noticed the trend of women having children just so that they can collect welfare. It is her philosophy that these problems will exist as long as society caters to "the lower mentality and the lower economics." In addition, anti-abortionists will rally as long as people fail to notice the hypocrisy among its male supporters. While men criticize abortion, they do not acknowledge their responsibility for raising and supporting children. (11:10-17:01)... Polliard talks about parenting, referring to something a musician said about the parenting strategies he and his ex-wife adopted. His love for his children reminded her of the love and support she received from her father and grandparents. This leads her to comment about abuse, referring to a neighborhood kid who could not stand to be touched because he came from an abusive household. She believes that abuse and neglect in the home leads to dysfunctional and criminal behavior among adults. (17:01-21:28)... When asked if there was anything else she would like to discuss, Polliard jokingly comments that there probably were a few things in the interviews that she would like omitted, but "when you get talking woman-to-woman you just kind of open up and to me that's why women will always survive because men don't talk that way and I think its sad." She recalls that as a young girl one of her favorite activities was listening to women talk about their lives. Polliard love children and although she would love to have a grandchild, her son does not want any children. She probably would not be capable of grandparenting a child the way her grandparents did because of her age and physical condition. (21:28-23:47)... Polliard notes: "I think that as women's rights mature and women take their equal place in the world, I can't see anything but better for all concerned." The number of broken homes is a disturbing trend. Couples get divorced instead of trying to resolve their problems. This breeds even more divorce because people typically take their past problems into their new marriage. She does not care what couples do in their relationships except when there are children involved. She also has a problem with interracial marriage because biracial children are not accepted in society. End of tape.
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