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Rozner, Sarah (audio interview #7 of 20)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the fifteenth interview with Sarah Rozner conducted in her home. She had not been feeling well the day prior to the interview and spent the entire day in bed. However, she seemed well during the interview. Although the interview was going to focus on her European trip and her experiences with labor people in Europe, over lunch we got into a discussion regarding the Haymarket Riot, since the previous Sunday was the anniversary of that event. TOPICS - opinions on anarchism, communism, the Wobblies, and capitalism; treatment of women in each of these systems; women's status; and view of union today as an organ of a capitalistic society;meeting Angelica Balabanoff; women's status; feminist consciousness; friendships; background factors in making her such a strong and tough woman; 11/13/1973
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- File: lhgwsrozner29.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-2:16)... Tape introduction. (2:16-3:31)... This segment begins abruptly with a discussion on the Haymarket Riot, in which Rozner states that the anarchists made a great contribution to the labor movement. [Note: this interview was conducted shortly after the anniversary of the Haymarket massacre.] (3:31-11:26)... She recalls that Mark Starr's wife, Helen Norton Starr, taught English at Brookwood Labor College. Starr did not have any involvement with the ACWA after leaving the college, but she and Rozner stayed in contact for some time. She also kept in contact with Golden, the Regional Director of Brookwood Labor College, who later became affiliated with the steelworkers union. She met Elizabeth Gurley Flynn while visiting the Golden home and describes her as a very intelligent and vivacious woman. She does not believe that Flynn was a communist at this time. Rozner was fighting the communists at Brookwood; she didn't think that they belonged there. The purpose of the college was to prepare students for leadership positions in unions and supply them with the tools to deal with employers and members of the union. (11:26-15:42)... When she joined the Socialist Party, she recalls feeling as if she finally "found" herself because socialism was nearest to her way of thinking. However, she did acquaint herself with other ideologies, including the IWWs. She went to a few IWW meetings and lectures, but mostly read their literature. She was inspired by the Wobblies because the IWW was an industrial union. Originally, the ACWA shared the IWW philosophy that the means of production belong to the working class. She also followed the anarchists and Emma Goldman and subscribed to Goldman's newspaper, Mother Earth. However, she could not subscribe to the communist credo, which never inspired her. (15:42-25:31)... Rozner associates promiscuity with women involved with the IWWs and the anarchists. She believes in monogamy and was not impressed with free love practices. This side of the radical movement simply went against her grain. In fact, her first sexual experience was tragic; she cried and wanted to get drunk so that she could hide from feeling guilty about doing something that ran counter to her upbringing. She doesn't know how concerned these groups were with the welfare of women. On the other hand, most of this concern came from the Women's Trade Union League and was embodied in women like Frances Perkins and Jane Addams. She recalls a Jewish saying, "scratch a goy and you will find anti-Semitism," but she did not believe this and found that, instead, that many people were genuine and wanted to help people. However, she believes that most men have egos and even though they may fight for the rights of women, it is on the condition that they remain in control. It is up to the women to liberate men, and to convince men that unless women have equality, men will also remain enslaved. She blames women for war, indicating that while men only help create the human race, the burden is left with women because they are the ones who raise the sons and daughters. The only way to free men and guarantee equality for women is by not allowing men to be killed in war. By the same token, the ACWA is not to blame for not giving women a chance. The women are the majority in the union and if they coordinated their efforts they could get what they wanted. (25:31-35:36)... In response to the recent lawsuits filed by women against the ACWA, although Rozner is happy that women are coordinating their efforts, she does not believe they should fight the union from the outside. She views this as a very capitalistic way of handling the problem. It is not the government that will help, but the workers. However, her education has taught her that revolutionary changes are not instigated by the working class. It is necessary for workers to be educated and build strong leaders. In a capitalistic system, there are two arms of power; the political and the industrial. Even if it means colluding with capitalisn, she believes that it is far better to cooperate with the manufacturers than destroy garments and machinery. When this occurs, prices are raised and the price of bread also rises. It is more beneficial to push a manufacturer out of business when he does not cooperate with the worker. (35:36-40:17)... For a brief period, the ACWA opened up cooperative factories, but these did not work because we live in a capitalistic society and people cannot isolate themselves from this. It would be an ideal society if there was a new social structure controlled by workers who took responsibility for themselves; however, she wonders if people are ready for this type of a society. [Note: interruptions in tape.] Even when society comes close to this ideal, it is always the capitalists who benefit from the workers. For example, she recalls working in a shop where the cost to repair coats was .6 cents and she brought it down to .2 cents per coat. end of tape File: lhgwsrozner30.mp3 (0:00-0:54)... She describes herself as selfish and egotistical enough to believe that, in her own humble way, she will leave a mark on society. (0:54-3:56)... Rozner met Angelica Balabanoff, who had served as the secretary of Benito Mussolini at one point, in Los Angeles in the 1940s. At the time, Balabanoff was in her seventies. Rozner describes her as a fascinating woman who loved Italy. Balabanoff also talked about Russia and her opposition to V.I. Lenin. (Editor's notes: Balabanoff worked with Mussolini in his early days, before he became a fascist. She herself was a staunch anarchist.) (3:56-11:42)... Rozner still owns has the first issue of the Advance (the newspaper published by the ACWA), which she often reads to see how things have changed in the union. It bothers her that the ACWA has digressed so far from its original purpose and that there are still injustices occurring. However, she believes the future will bring new leadership and new hope for the workers. Her life was never a bed of roses, but she tried to serve as a model for women. However, now that she is older and is not contributing to society, she does not know why she is still alive. As a woman, she does not regret that she never married or had any children. (11:42-14:31)... Despite all her struggles as a woman, she never wished she was a man. Although she was interested in helping the working class as a whole, she was extremely conscious about the problems facing women in society and within the ACWA. She made extra efforts to protect and defend women in all walks of life. (14:31-24:40)... Her relationship with Hilda Shapiro and her cousin Rose Rozner was unique. At one time, she lived with the two of them and Sadie Goodman, although she did not share as close a bond with Goodman. Although Rozner spent a lot of time with her at Brookwood Labor College and elsewhere, she was always protecting or defending Goodman in some way. She had close relationships with other women, as well, but the one with Shapiro and her cousin as a rarity. (24:40-27:49)... Her concern for women was also reflected in her friendships with Shapiro and her cousin because both of these women had problems. The issues with women in the ACWA were important. She believes that women needed a place in the union and should take advantage of any opportunities available to them. She urged women to continue Local 275, but when Clara Leon died, the local disappeared. Leon's dying wish was that the Local be maintained properly; however, she did nothing to train or prepare a successor to continue the work in the Local. (27:49-33:27)... When she immigrated to the United States, there were no women from whom she gained strength. At the time, she was very ignorant ,even though she knew how to read and write. She describes herself as being a presentable young girl with a peaches and cream complexion, rosy cheeks, dark eyes, and a nice face. She recalls men whistling at her when she walked down the street; she told them to go to hell. She was a tough, young woman, and as a child had been a tomboy and a daredevil. She often fought with the boys when they bothered her or her other friends. Rozner's mother had guts, which is where Rozner thinks she got her strength. Her mother was not bothered when other mothers came to her and complained about Rozner's behavior. She was more concerned about feeding her children than child's play. End of tape.
- SUBJECT BIO - Sarah Rozner joined the ranks of the labor movement the minute she set foot on US soil and began working in men's clothing in Chicago just prior to the 1910 strike. She organized practically every shop in which she worked - unless she was fired first - and was particularly interested in mobilizing women and helping them to assert their rights. Her woman/feminist consciousness led her to work on the establishment of a Woman's Local of the ACWA in Chicago (Local 275). She worked with other women in the ACWA to establish a Woman's Bureau, but did not succeed. She became one of the first women Business Agents in tailoring in Chicago in 1921, and held various positions in the shops and in the union. When she moved to Los Angeles in 1938, she continued to organize at the shop level, establishing education programs for workers at Louart. She continued to advocate for women, and when she retired in 1959, she established a scholarship for women. Even after her retirement, Rozner remained involved with the union, became a member of CLUW (Coalition of Labor Women) after its formation, and remained outspoken on women's issues, particularly in the labor movement. The interviews with Rozner totaled almost hours, divided fairly evenly between her activities in Chicago and in Los Angeles. She was interviewed as part of the Feminist History Research Project labor series, referred by the ACWA. INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the fifteenth interview with Sarah Rozner conducted in her home. She had not been feeling well the day prior to the interview and spent the entire day in bed. However, she seemed well during the interview. Although the interview was going to focus on her European trip and her experiences with labor people in Europe, over lunch we got into a discussion regarding the Haymarket Riot, since the previous Sunday was the anniversary of that event. TOPICS - opinions on anarchism, communism, the Wobblies, and capitalism; treatment of women in each of these systems; women's status; and view of union today as an organ of a capitalistic society;meeting Angelica Balabanoff; women's status; feminist consciousness; friendships; background factors in making her such a strong and tough woman;
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