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Pack, Della (audio interview #2 of 3)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This second of three interviews conducted for a women's oral history class took place in Della Pack's apartment in Long Beach. This interview centered on her marriage and family life, but because the previous interview was an overall biography, there is some repetition. 7/14/1976
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- 2021-01-27
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- SUBJECT BIO - Della Pearl Pack joined the Salvation Army at the age of eighteen and eventually became a Major. Born in Missouri, she moved with her family to Trinidad, Colorado when she was a teenager. This is when she first encountered the Salvation Army. Despite her parents opposition, she joined the organization when she turned eighteen. After graduation from the training center in Chicago, Pack was stationed at several different posts in the west. In 1921, she married James Ray Pack, who then entered into training, after which they supervised various Salvation Army centers together. Their daughter was born in 1924 and their son four years later. After her husband's death in 1941, she continued her Army work, spending most of her time in social work. Her assignments included Secretary of Welfare in Portland, Oregon; working at a home and hospital for "unwed" mothers in Oakland, California and an Emergency Lodge for Women and Children in San Francisco. Pack officially retired in 1957 but continued working until 1968. At the time of the interview, she was in fair health and was still participating in Army activities. TOPICS - entering Salvation Army; parental and sibling reaction; children joining; responsibility of women in service; gender ideology; social attitudes to Salvation Army; commands and responsibilities; marriage, illness,and return to service; marital relationship; Evangeline Booth and William Bramwell Booth; Long Beach employment agency; and retirement activities;Evangeline Home, Tacoma; courtship; husband, marriage, and family life; goal/purpose of Salvation Army;
- *** File: refdpack3.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-4:58)... Pack describes her family as harmonious and Christian. When she wanted to enter the Army, her father was very much opposed to it, while her mother was more lenient and never opposed her. A sister was very much opposed and offered her almost everything to quit, even after she became an officer. Years later her sister acknowledged having given her a bad time and said she would have been disappointed if Pack had quit. Her mother was a lovely person. Pack couldn't remember ever having any arguments at home. Her mother never worked outside the home. Pack comments that women didn't do that then and that even in the Salvation Army a woman's first responsibility was to her children, regardless of her other obligations. Pack fully agreed and made certain she took care of her children first. (4:58-9:25)... Pack's children were included in the army activities. Her son became an officer and at time of interview was working at at the Evangeline Home (a home away from home for girls) in Los Angeles. Her daughter still goes to the army when she can. Pack joined the army and went into training when she was eighteen. She was eager to answer the call at her young age, but says if she waited her preparation may have been better. The main thing is the call; a person should feel called to that type of service. Nowadays more education and training are required. Her grandson will complete college and then join. It's not an easy life, although not as hard as when she went in. (9:25-11:57)... Pack claims that there was a great deal of opposition to the Salvation Army in the early days, including from the churches. Not knowing about it and its efforts, many looked down on it, which might explain her father's opposition to it. You had to prove yourself. Today there is much less of that, except for a few people. Pack never found too much trouble because people saw and realized what she was doing. Finances were harder then; there was no Community Chest, you had to get your own money where you could. No longer do they collect in saloons, for example. People know the army better, and money comes easier. (11:57-17:36)... Pack was in command at various posts, responsible for seeing that everything went well. She felt the army had confidence in her to give her the appointments. She never thought anything of being over men. She had a sergeant major at one post and gave him orders. It didn't bother either. When she and her husband decided to marry, she was sick, and they were out of the work over a year. When they returned, she was a Corps officer's wife and took his rank. He was the head of the home, and although they shared that belief, in practice it was a partnership, not a boss relationship. They worked together very well. She went where he went, including chapel service in the prisons. When the children came, she couldn't do as much outside work. She got child care to attend the councils. (17:36-22:08)... Pack discusses ranking in the Salvation Army. A woman officer took her husband's rank, and she was reduced in rank if his was lower than hers. When Pack married her husband wasn't a candidate in training and she was a captain. To protect her rank, the army gave him the rank of provisionary captain and he didn't go to training. They went right out into the field, with an appointment to Monterey. Because she had five years of service before marriage, the army exempted them. She was promoted to her present rank, senior major, when her husband died. Pack's son completed twenty five years of service and became a major. Only with a staff appointment would he go to colonel, but he likes his present church work and wants to stay there until his family is grown. (22:08-25:40)... Pack maintains that the Salvation Army has always believed in women having the same rights as men. The founder's wife started that in the beginning, and women have been given the same positions as men. Evangeline Booth, the founder's daughter, was even a general, and many women have reached high rank. Women have been put in charge of territories after having shown the capability. There have been a few beneficial changes. Formerly when a husband died, the wife went back to a single officer's salary. That happened when her husband died, even though she had children. That practice has been stopped. (25:40-28:27)... World War I brought the Salvation Army to public attention and attitudes toward it changed. There was much praise for it and Pack never heard a complaint. She recounts one occasion at Fort Lewis when she was on one side of a door and a YMCA man on the other side. As the servicemen came through, they all praised the army, but she didn't hear a word about the Y and felt sorry for the man. The Salvation Army operated almost close to the firing lines and the women did heartwarming things as bringing cookies and doughnuts to the troops. When she was at Fort Lewis the Salvation Army hut was open to visitors to the servicemen, and it served meals, all of which helped change the image of the army. (28:27-33:24)... Pack describes Evangeline Booth, the daughter of the founder of the Salvation Army, as a marvelous woman. She was a general and the commander of the army in the US. Pack vaguely remembered an incident when a man dressed like a woman and got in to see her, intending to do her harm. [She remembered nothing more.] In the late 1920's General William Bramwell Booth's health deteriorated to the point that he couldn't perform his functions as head of the army around the world. The high council had to vote to end his term. The family was terribly upset, and the officers could feel it, but anyone with common sense knew that it was the right thing to do and it all worked out. (33:24-38:00)... With so much territory to cover. Salvation Army national officers didn't get around often. A general came to the city center of Santa Monica for four days and people came to meet him from all over the territory and had a marvelous time. Pack ran an employment agency for men and women, and 1100 people went through the Long Beach office. She had applicants who were going "down the line" with drink, and it bothered her to see them throwing away their lives. (38:00-40:42)... Following retirement , Pack went overseas with the Hollywood Tabernacle Choir. They had chartered a plane and invited her to join them. It was an opportunity to go with people she knew. Their first stop was London, where the choir had a concert., and then they went to Holland and other countries and back to Paris and London for the trip home. She spoke fondly of a second three-week cruise to the Panama Canal, Venezuela, and other ports with retired army officers. End of tape. *** File: refdpack4.mp3 (0:00-4:40)... Pack worked at the Evangeline Home in Tacoma Washington. These were homes away from home for young working girls, who had left their homes seeking jobs. Many came from small towns, had limited finances, and were lost when it came to knowing how to get along in the city. They would have had problems living alone in an apartment. Evangeline Home gave them protection, a warm and caring place, meals, chapel services, and planned programs for times like Christmas. There were 300 girls in the home in Los Angeles. It was a good program. When she decided to marry, Pack transferred to California. [Note: the tape is mostly incomprehensible the last forty segments of this segment.] (4:40-10:38)... Pack talks about being courted by her future husband. They initially met on her first appointment, in Ogden; again in Seattle at some special services when she was at Fort Lewis; then at Anacortes, where she was sick and he wrote her; and, finally, when she was posted to Bremerton, where he was working for Standard Oil. He saw her every day and brought her a red rose, until he won her. He was a successful person and well liked by everyone. Pack had dated some before meeting her future husband, but officers weren't supposed to marry outside the officer corps, which was limiting. She had a lovely small wedding in Bremerton. She wore her uniform with a white vest-like thing. When they married, however, she was ill and as a result of goiter surgery was unable to speak. As a result they didn't have a honeymoon and were out of army service for a year. (10:38-13:00)... Pack's husband was always home in the evenings and, when the children were small, spent as much time as possible with them. Vacations included camping and fishing trips to Idaho and Yellowstone. When she had work outside, he was good with the children. Her daughter thought her daddy was just about the grandest person on earth, and she still talks about him. Their son was only thirteen when his father died and she then had sole responsibility for raising two children at a time when they needed a father. (13:00-17:25)... Being in the army had no effect on Pack's married life and might, in fact, have helped. Her husband wasn't away. He went to work as a Corps officer every morning, and if she had work, she'd be with him. He'd come home for lunch, sometimes a game of checkers to relax, and would be there in evening with the family. They were together a lot. Pack doesn't believe that the children were affected at school by their being part of Salvation Army. Although some children might have made fun of them, it had no discernible effect. They played in the band at school. It did effect some Salvation Army children, however, who won't go to the army when they grow up. Pack believe that your home life affects the children, and they had a good home life. (17:25-20:19)... Being able to help people has been the most meaningful thing about her work in the Salvation Army. She felt that she was called to do certain work and it meant a lot to be able to do it. After she married, Pack didn't do much preaching because her voice was bad and her husband did it. Soon after her husband died, she was sent to welfare work in Portland, dealing with people all the time, all kinds of cases. She comments that doing it in the name of the Lord was the highlight of her working life. (20:19-24:04)... Pack recounts an example of an impressive conversion of a person as a result of army work. A young man she had met in a bible studies program for young persons in Boise had become a dope addict as a result of all the drugs he was given while convalescing from war wounds. He was on the verge of suicide when he remembered the words Pack and her husband had spoken in the class. After receiving his letter, she wrote to ask how he was. He was married, had his own business, and was happy. It was things like that that meant something, knowing they had been able to help him. (24:04-31:57)... Although the purpose of the Salvation Army hasn't changed, there is a great change in what is required of officers. Now, her son has a bookkeeper, a secretary, and a receptionist while she did all those things herself when she was a Corps officer. Now, heavier requirements make that impossible. Now there are advisory boards, men who help out, and her son is often asked to go speak at banquets of such boards. I The main purpose of the army, from the beginning, is to get people saved. It's not a social agency. The stores that the army runs, bringing in men with alcohol and other problems, putting them to work refinishing and selling furniture helps the army to continue. But the whole purpose is to get the men "right with God." She believes that there is no conflict between social and spiritual work. End of tape.
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